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Mark Rippetoe on the Deadlift
- Thread starter Donut62
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I am obviously no expert but i start with the bar touching my shins.
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Mine doesn't touch my shins.
Here's more from Mark on the deadlift:
"I like overanalysis, but I think you have missed the main point. There are 3 criteria for the correct deadlift position off the floor: The bar must be over the mid-foot, the back must be in extension, and the scapulas must be over the bar.
The primary concern for all barbell exercises where the bar is held on the body or in the hands is that for the system to be in balance with heavy weight the bar will be directly over the middle of the foot. In the deadlift, this occurs at the starting position when the bar is touching the shins with the knees slightly forward of the bar. But the knees are not the marker, the mid-foot is.
The fact that the back must be in extension is rather obvious. But the scapular position is not. The spine transmits the force generated by the hips and legs up to the load, the traps hang the scapulae from the spine, the arms hang from the scapulae, and the bar hangs from the arms. The scapulae are the bony components that receive the force from the back, and they are the points below which the bar hangs. In this position the arms hang at a slight angle back to the bar when the arms are loaded, and the lats keep them there so that the bar can stay under the scapulae. This position is identified by the arm angle, 5-10 degrees in most people -- it is not necessary to see the scapulas to know they are in the right place if the arm angle is correct. Vertical arms are not correct.
When you see videos of lifters in their set position with the arms vertical or even behind the vertical, play the video frame-by-frame until the bar breaks the floor. If the weight is heavy (light weights can be done wrong) you will see the configuration described above establish itself. The back angle that you see as the scapulas settle into position over the bar is the correct angle, and will vary with the lifter. My point is that an incorrect start position wastes juice, because the correct position will be along shortly whether you want it to be or not.
Find me a heavy deadlift that does not conform to this model and we'll talk. Magnusson's and Bolton's records both do, but watch them carefully to see this. The weight is so heavy that their upper backs are rounded by the load, making the arms relatively vertical -- possible because of the fact that the bar is still directly under the scapulas. In both cases the bar is directly over the mid-foot. There will be examples of bad form, but my point is that from a musculoskeletal perspective, there is only one efficient way to pull the bar off the ground, and any other configuration wastes energy trying to get it back in balance that could otherwise be used to pull more weight.
When we teach the deadlift, we place the feet under the bar with the mid-foot directly under the bar, we take a grip right outside the legs, we lower the butt until the shins come just into contact with the bar but DOES NOT CHANGE ITS POSITION ON THE GROUND, lift the chest (placing the back in extension) and pull the bar up the legs. This results in a correct back angle and a correct pull every time, provided hamstring flexibility is sufficient to pull the back into good extension in this position. It feels funny at light weights because of the differences in center of mas distribution, but everybody reports that as the weight gets heavier it feels better than any other form they've tried to use."
"I like overanalysis, but I think you have missed the main point. There are 3 criteria for the correct deadlift position off the floor: The bar must be over the mid-foot, the back must be in extension, and the scapulas must be over the bar.
The primary concern for all barbell exercises where the bar is held on the body or in the hands is that for the system to be in balance with heavy weight the bar will be directly over the middle of the foot. In the deadlift, this occurs at the starting position when the bar is touching the shins with the knees slightly forward of the bar. But the knees are not the marker, the mid-foot is.
The fact that the back must be in extension is rather obvious. But the scapular position is not. The spine transmits the force generated by the hips and legs up to the load, the traps hang the scapulae from the spine, the arms hang from the scapulae, and the bar hangs from the arms. The scapulae are the bony components that receive the force from the back, and they are the points below which the bar hangs. In this position the arms hang at a slight angle back to the bar when the arms are loaded, and the lats keep them there so that the bar can stay under the scapulae. This position is identified by the arm angle, 5-10 degrees in most people -- it is not necessary to see the scapulas to know they are in the right place if the arm angle is correct. Vertical arms are not correct.
When you see videos of lifters in their set position with the arms vertical or even behind the vertical, play the video frame-by-frame until the bar breaks the floor. If the weight is heavy (light weights can be done wrong) you will see the configuration described above establish itself. The back angle that you see as the scapulas settle into position over the bar is the correct angle, and will vary with the lifter. My point is that an incorrect start position wastes juice, because the correct position will be along shortly whether you want it to be or not.
Find me a heavy deadlift that does not conform to this model and we'll talk. Magnusson's and Bolton's records both do, but watch them carefully to see this. The weight is so heavy that their upper backs are rounded by the load, making the arms relatively vertical -- possible because of the fact that the bar is still directly under the scapulas. In both cases the bar is directly over the mid-foot. There will be examples of bad form, but my point is that from a musculoskeletal perspective, there is only one efficient way to pull the bar off the ground, and any other configuration wastes energy trying to get it back in balance that could otherwise be used to pull more weight.
When we teach the deadlift, we place the feet under the bar with the mid-foot directly under the bar, we take a grip right outside the legs, we lower the butt until the shins come just into contact with the bar but DOES NOT CHANGE ITS POSITION ON THE GROUND, lift the chest (placing the back in extension) and pull the bar up the legs. This results in a correct back angle and a correct pull every time, provided hamstring flexibility is sufficient to pull the back into good extension in this position. It feels funny at light weights because of the differences in center of mas distribution, but everybody reports that as the weight gets heavier it feels better than any other form they've tried to use."
JPC
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I've posted and refered to that Rippetoe link several times here, a few times in direct response to someone posting Tate's article. I think Tate did a poor job of explaining what he meant, because its simply impossible to pull the bar back from the floor using your bodyweight like a teeter totter. The shins are in the way. If you start the pull with your shoulders behind the bar, as soon as it leaves the ground it will come swinging back behind your shoulders. Nobody can hold a heavy deadlift in a partial front raise, but your lats can hold it slightly behind the shoulders. This shortens the lever arm from the hips and reduces the force needed to extend the hips and keep the spine neutral. Once the bar passes the knees you can start pulling the shoulders back behind the bar.
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ditto..
I think I lift ALOT like DevilsSon; I pull mostly with my back and use very little of my legs..
BlondeWarrior
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what?! Really?! The bar rakes across my shins.
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Keiwil
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My observation is that there are 3 types of deadlifters.
1. Athletes with strong hamstring. They crouch deeper so they can push off with their legs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPq3LyfFhUs
Ove Lehto was the IPF world champion 2006. He now has converted to the sumo deadlift.
But his deadlift style seems to be the result of strong hamstrings.
Ive also had the pleasure of training with his training partner who only weighs ~75 kg's and deadlifts +260 kg.
Oves training log: http://ovel.bravejournal.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFPpfWwbR6Q
An other example of strong hamstrings.
He is 18 years old
2. Those who have strong lower back muscles and lean over the bar and deadlift with straighter legs.
Lower back lifters.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Konstantinovs
Jouko Ahola
http://youtube.com/watch?v=G5AsXFtKKSQ
3. sumo deadlifters
Has anyone else noticed that their lifts have changed as muscles have developed?
1. Athletes with strong hamstring. They crouch deeper so they can push off with their legs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPq3LyfFhUs
Ove Lehto was the IPF world champion 2006. He now has converted to the sumo deadlift.
But his deadlift style seems to be the result of strong hamstrings.
Ive also had the pleasure of training with his training partner who only weighs ~75 kg's and deadlifts +260 kg.
Oves training log: http://ovel.bravejournal.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFPpfWwbR6Q
An other example of strong hamstrings.
He is 18 years old
2. Those who have strong lower back muscles and lean over the bar and deadlift with straighter legs.
Lower back lifters.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Konstantinovs
Jouko Ahola
http://youtube.com/watch?v=G5AsXFtKKSQ
3. sumo deadlifters
Has anyone else noticed that their lifts have changed as muscles have developed?
Monger
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I think your classifications are due to limb and torso lengths more than they are a strong back or hamstrings. It's a leverage issue coupled with proper body mechanics.
To be more specific, Mark Rippetoe says...
Once the criteria is met, your limb and torso length will dictate your starting hip depth and back angle.
To be more specific, Mark Rippetoe says...
Once the criteria is met, your limb and torso length will dictate your starting hip depth and back angle.
I agree. That's how Rippetoe explains it.
Also, you can't really lift anything with your lower back. The spinal erectors extend the spine not the hips. On a lift like Ahola's, where it's just one big hip extension, it's all glutes and hamstrings. On the ones where knee extension accompanies the lifting of the weight, the quads are helping out. I think.
