Many questions about "methods" after reading FAQ, need new workout

[cheez whiz]

I certainly did not mean to imply that these people have authority because they are close to me. They are people with degrees, is the point.

Also, your math is flawed. Consider the following as an example:
Eric weighs 100 kgs. Of this, 10% is fat - he has a body fat percentage of 10%. This equals 10 kilograms of fat.
Eric trains hard, and eats lots of good food. He increases his bodyweight to 150 kgs -- this is very exaggerated, but will yield very easy calculations. 14 kgs of this is fat. 10% of 150 is 15, so Erics BF% is now below 10% - he has gained mass, he has gained fat, and his body fat percent has dropped. Are you with me? Reducing BF% is not the same thing as losing fat.

However, i performed the calculations on the Mr. Cressey in your example, and it indeed shows that he gained 3.5 lbs and dropped 7 lbs of fat at the same time. However, i have no reason to assume he did so without bulking and then cutting, or without steroids and other such supplements. It is in his economic interest to say he didn't, and i will not consider that an independent source. You want blood and tears and vomit? I want science and studies.

I like your example, and it would work that way too - gaining a massive amount of muscle and a small amount of fat would indeed decrease one's BF% while they actually gained fat. However, if I could gain a hundred pounds of muscle while gaining 4 pounds of fat, I might just take it.

I'll email Eric Cressey and ask him about the details of his two DEXA scans and the methods he used to get there, but I'm pretty sure he's against the old school "bulk and cut" philosophy, so I'm guessing he simply made the gains lean.

It's a better way to go, really, and it's what I'm working on right now. It's not as easy for an older guy - I tend to make slower gains and have a harder time shedding fat - but it's what I'm shooting for. In eight months' time I want to be the same weight I am now, but about 5% less bodyfat. And I'm doing it without bulkng and cutting. That means a pound of muscle a month I need to gain, which is ambitious but not impossible. I need to lift right and eat right and rest right. I'd settle for a two-pound drop in weight and a four percent decrease in bodyfat, which should come as I add cardio.

Anyway, I'm not going to just argue back and forth. I'll just say that there are facts that support my point, including my personal experience and that of an expert. It's dangerous to use the superlative and claim that something can always or never be done, or that something is impossible. That's my main problem with what you said. It is certainly not impossible.

 

[cheez whiz]

Indivdude - I'm sorry I butchered your screen name.

I'll link to and excerpt from an article I found on a simple google search of "bulk and cut". The method that used to be very popular for bodybuilders in particular has been rethought, and it isn't as popular as it once was.

Oh, and sorry to use an example from the BB world, but BB'ers and PL'ers steal stuff from each other all the time, so...

"What are ‘reasonable’ expectations for fat loss and muscle gain?

In picking a goal, it’s fair to say that you have to keep it within the realms of the possible. Fat loss of 0.5-5 lbs. a week is possible. Obviously, the leaner you are to begin with, the lower on that range you will be, and vice versa. If you have lots of fat to lose, you’ll lose it at a faster rate.

Muscle gain (lean body mass, not dry weight) is a more contentious issue and much has been made in the press about upper limits, with many forum posters refuting the collective data in favor of more subjective anecdotes. Personally, I’ve seen some quite amazing gains, so rather than court controversy, I’ll put the range between 0.5-2.5 lbs. per month, the lower end for the more advanced trainee and the higher end for the novice. These are average figures, and I’m aware that muscle gain isn’t linear, but given that we’re going to be using six- and twelve-month periods, it doesn’t matter too much.

Based on the figures above, in six months, one could potentially gain as much as 15 lbs. of lean body mass and lose as much as 30 lbs. of fat. To put that in context, a man currently at 250 lbs. at 20% BF has 200 lbs. of Lean Body Mass (20% BF is 50 lbs.).

Applying the maximum LBM gains and fat losses above to our 250 lb. man, we end up with an individual weighing 235 lbs. at 8.5% BF after six months.

If hitting 235 lbs. at 8.5% BF is your goal, rather than bulk beyond that weight and cut, I would recommend that you determine the maintenance requirements for a 235 lb. man at 8.5% BF and consume this maintenance level of calories, day in and day out, until you hit 235 lbs. at 8.5% BF, thus avoiding ‘do I bulk or cut’ scenario.

So, picking your target bodyweight and composition is as easy as choosing a reasonable bodyweight and body fat percentage. Finding your maintenance calorie intake for that goal is as easy as plugging them into the equations that follow."

Excerpted from an article by Daniel Roberts. It's a good article. He goes on to explain how to calculate the proper caloric intake, etc. Read the whole thing here:

To Bulk or to Cut, That is the Question - or is it? | Wannabebig

 

[VoodooPlata]

Jim Wendler has a few words to say to you.

This is purposeful paraphrasing, which you probably understood . While Jim is my guru on all things strength-related, by virtue of being really strong and really smart, the "blood, tears and vomit" quote is one of the dumbest things I've heard and is used by droves of people who succeed in spite of their training and not because of it.

Anyway, I'm not going to just argue back and forth. I'll just say that there are facts that support my point, including my personal experience and that of an expert. It's dangerous to use the superlative and claim that something can always or never be done, or that something is impossible. That's my main problem with what you said. It is certainly not impossible.

Alright, point taken. I don't think that I made an irresponsible statement by simplifying, but you seem to be convinced of your position and supported by others on this forum so I will agree to considering having made a slight exaggeration. Maybe i should have posted that it is "very difficult" to gain lean mass or something.

 

[lena]

I will say that while it is possible, it is very difficult to gain only lean mass while bulking, and will require a lot of micromanagement. You'll have to manage caloric intake and training volume quite precisely. The tendency would be to miss your mark a little, and either 1) gain a little fat, or 2) get too lean and slow muscle growth as a result.

Someone's who's not an advanced trainee would be better served erring on the side of bulking. I think that is what the advocates for "bulk and cut" are really saying.