Many questions about "methods" after reading FAQ, need new workout

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by NoLimits1987, Sep 8, 2010.

  1. NoLimits1987

    NoLimits1987 White Belt

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    Hello all! first time posting in the SC section, hoping to get a new workout routine by the end of it all, I just have so many freaking questions and would appreciate your help. **YES I READ THE FAQ IN ITS ENTIRETY AND EVEN SPENT A FEW HOURS RESEARCHING THE LINKS.

    Background: Intermediate lifter (6 yrs lifting, diet in check, sleep in check, supps in check) who has lifted just for size/strgth gains ,looks and health up until this point. I am 5 9 at a lean 175 currently. My weaknesses are my bench, hamstrings in general, and I do very little cardio or "bust your ass for xx seconds" workouts (which I have a list from my search, but still not sure how to incorporate into my routine as of now). I currently lift 4 days a week and would, at the minimum, still like to go 3 days a week if possible. I train MMA M-Th for 1-2 hrs.

    Goals: engage in exercises that will improve my overall MMA "functionality" while still building overall LM Mass (hopefully reflected in minimal weight gain over time), strength, and power.

    I have been training MMA for a total of 3 months now and would like to switch up my routine (as I do frequently) and I have read the options in the FAQ and need some clarification/recommendations on some things before I choose one.

    Questions:

    1. I see all of these "methods" (madcow, 5-3-1, texas, etc) and wonder are they all geared towards MY specific goals (not cutting, LMM build, etc) even though the reps and ranges change or do specific methods work best in specific situations?

    2. Some methods give no specific dedication to abs/core, is this under the assumption you are training MMA frequently or do they do this because they believe the core is engaged in the exercises they have chosen (squats, deads, etc)?

    3. If any of you have my same goals listed above and are having good results with your method I would appreciate you telling me which one you use (I know alot of this is individualistic and based on many factors, but it is still helpful to have a "thumbs up" in some regard)

    4. In addition, If you share my goals and have a LOG up where I can visually see what exercises you are including that would help me tremendously as I am a visual learner and have no way of really determining which logs are directly related to my situation, could you let me know so I can search and go look at it?

    Sorry for the long read... Thanks for your help
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2010
  2. VoodooPlata

    VoodooPlata Brown Belt

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    Great!
    You will gain in muscle mass and fat. If you train for MMA you will need to absolutely stuff yourself with calories until you gain both kinds of mass, and then lose the fat afterwards. There is no way of gaining only lean muscle mass.
    They are all geared towards building strength. You will have to decide which one fits you best - how many days a week you can train, what intensity/volume you can handle and such. All of them requires you to eat like a huge man.
    This is because they believe, quite rightly, that doing these exercises will build your core. Squats, front squats, deadlifts, good mornings, standing overhead press and overhead squats (not to mention power cleans) are all GREAT ways of building core strength. Most do not need extra attention to abs.

    Start with starting strength. It's great.

    I am the worst logger on here, so someone else should help you with this.
    No probs man. Welcome to the S & C.
     
  3. pliftkl

    pliftkl Green Belt

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    I'll echo this advice. You're probably thinking to yourself "I'm an intermediate lifter, not a beginner!" However, if you've not trained a program like SS, you may still be able to see beginner gains from it. Your best bet is to try SS, and use it until you no longer see improvements from it, and only then switch to one of the intermediate routines.
     
  4. Origins

    Origins Blue Belt

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    Right, you might look at some strength standards table and think that you are an intermediate, or maybe you think that just because you have been lifting for 6 years. If you can progress in a linear fashion on a program like SS, which you probably still can, you would be a fool not to.
     
  5. toonie

    toonie Tuesday

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    What are your numbers for the squat, bench, deadlift, ohp? I think these would help determine a better program for you too.
     
  6. NoLimits1987

    NoLimits1987 White Belt

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    Thanks for all the help, I think your recommendation of starting strength will work great if I do the 3 day routine! different enough from the stuff I have usually done since it was geared toward "bodybuilding" and I see people have great things to say about it.. so here goes. Thanks again.
     
  7. VoodooPlata

    VoodooPlata Brown Belt

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    No probs, man! Get a log, too.
     
  8. Origins

    Origins Blue Belt

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    Start with the novice program. The one where you alternate between two workouts three times a week.
     
  9. Dafreeclinic

    Dafreeclinic Orange Belt

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    Not true. if you stayed at a maintenance its possible.
     
  10. cheez whiz

    cheez whiz Brown Belt

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    This is simply not true.
     
  11. VoodooPlata

    VoodooPlata Brown Belt

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    Source?

    If you are at a caloric surplus, you will grow in both muscle and fat. There is simply no way to tell the body that 100% of the energy surplus needs to go to muscle mass. If you are exactly at maintenance, you might grow only muscle - this is impossible for a human to actually do though, so it's moot. Of course bulking clean is preferable, one can absolutely go far in the pursuit of gaining as little fat as possible, but everyone i've ever spoken to on the subject (everyone knowledgeable like college nutrition professors anyway) has told me that it is absolutely impossible for a human to gain only muscle mass.
     
  12. VoodooPlata

    VoodooPlata Brown Belt

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    And before this becomes a huge fight (which it will) let me also say that even if it were possible to gain only muscle, there is a value in making things as simple as possible for a beginner. Simple in this case being "eat like a motherfucker".
     
  13. cheez whiz

    cheez whiz Brown Belt

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    Eric Cressey, for one. He has documented it in himself, and in people he has trained.

    I've also done it - gained lean mass. It's hard for me to believe that you've never heard of anyone gaining weight and lowering bodyfat percentage at the same time. It's common.

    For you to think it's impossible is a bad thing, but for you to tell others it's impossible is just irresponsible. Do some research.
     
  14. Indivdude

    Indivdude Blue Belt

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    That's different than only gaining lean mass. But whatever. I was also under the impression that doing that is only going to negatively impact your lifts whether by regressing or slowing progress.
     
  15. Tosa

    Tosa Red Belt

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    The body goes through both anabolic (muscle building) and catabolic (fat and muscle burning) periods throughout the day/week. By carefully managing those periods it is possible to gain muscle and lose fat over the same period of time. But it's far simpler, easier and more effective to just focus on one thing at a time.
     
  16. VoodooPlata

    VoodooPlata Brown Belt

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    As soon as i read your post i tried to find information on this, but i couldn't find anything that i felt was from reliable sources. Also, i find it interesting when you say "it's common" when my friend and wife, one nutritionist and one health promoter, say that "it might be done if you knew exactly what you were doing, but no human could do it on purpose since you would have to know your body perfectly". If it was common, i feel that their answers to my questions would be different. Now i'm not saying that you are completely wrong, since i can't find anything at all on the subject from a reliable source (not with half an hour of googling, anyhow), but i feel that as a general statement "gain both kinds of mass, burn fat later" is sound advice for a n00b. It will cut out micromanagement, make training easy and efficient, and help him look for confidence in his lifts and not his waistline which is something all people should be doing anyway.
     
  17. cheez whiz

    cheez whiz Brown Belt

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    Telling someone they have to bulk and then cut because there is no alternative - that it's impossible to become leaner and gain muscle mass at the same time - is just wrong. I've made those kind of gains. Others have done it.

    A guy who lifts and overeats will get bigger and fatter and stronger. I certainly don't deny that, and I've experienced that firsthand too. But who wants to increase their bodyfat percentage? There's no reason to. If you eat right and train right you can simply change your composition.

    Cressey notes that when he first started powerlifting he had a DEXA scan (a very accurate body composition measurement) performed. He was 5'8", 171.6 pounds, 14.6% bodyfat.

    After a year of powerlifting, including competing four times, his bodyweight was 175.1 pounds, and his bodyfat was 10.5 percent. He gained 3.5 pounds and dropped 3.7 percent bodyfat. That's what we want to see, and should be working towards, unless you're a superheavy strongman competitor or football lineman or something where extra weight (fat) isn't a liability.

    You said straight-up lean mass gain is impossible. It's not. It doesn't matter who you're married to or friends with if you're incorrect in what you say.


    invidude - What's your definition of lean mass gain if it's not what I said? I said gaining weight and lowering bodyfat at the same time. Let me be more specific. Gaining muscle mass and lowering bodyfat at the same time. One's weight could stay the same, or even reduce. And someone could have a tumor or fluid that would make them gain weight alone during a bodyfat reduction, but that's not what I'm talking about.


    Sound advice for a noob would be to pick a goal, train hard and eat right, in accordance with that goal. There's no reason to advocate "bulk and cut", nor is it impossible to make lean gains.
     
  18. NoLimits1987

    NoLimits1987 White Belt

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    This is an interesting debate. I have long been using the "bulk and cut" method because that allowed me to make larger "gains" then spend a relatively shorter time period to shed the fat and up until now I have never NEEDED to only gain lean muscle mass. I will do some more research on this topic because I would like gain a high percentage of muscle compared to the amount of fat I gain if it is indeed possible as some people are saying, which I assume is going to come down to timing of meals/ meal composition and overall caloric intake. Anybody have any reliable sources they would care to post?
     
  19. VoodooPlata

    VoodooPlata Brown Belt

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    I certainly did not mean to imply that these people have authority because they are close to me. They are people with degrees, is the point.

    Also, your math is flawed. Consider the following as an example:
    Eric weighs 100 kgs. Of this, 10% is fat - he has a body fat percentage of 10%. This equals 10 kilograms of fat.
    Eric trains hard, and eats lots of good food. He increases his bodyweight to 150 kgs -- this is very exaggerated, but will yield very easy calculations. 14 kgs of this is fat. 10% of 150 is 15, so Erics BF% is now below 10% - he has gained mass, he has gained fat, and his body fat percent has dropped. Are you with me? Reducing BF% is not the same thing as losing fat.

    However, i performed the calculations on the Mr. Cressey in your example, and it indeed shows that he gained 3.5 lbs and dropped 7 lbs of fat at the same time. However, i have no reason to assume he did so without bulking and then cutting, or without steroids and other such supplements. It is in his economic interest to say he didn't, and i will not consider that an independent source. You want blood and tears and vomit? I want science and studies.
     
  20. Indivdude

    Indivdude Blue Belt

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    :icon_conf

    I don't have a different definition of lean mass and it definitely wouldn't include tumors. However, I don't think this is impossible and it has been done by a lot of people. I do not know how easy it is but when it comes to very new people that are just starting out in lifting, I would think it'd be easier to have them bulk and cut if they wish to lose the fat later. Instead of trying to maintain a balance between gaining muscle and losing bf.

    Besides its not like bulking has to be eat everything in damn sight. It can be a clean bulk with good and healthy food in great quantities. That would limit fat gain as opposed to eating anything, including junk food and fast food.


    But it would depend on the individual so I would agree with this. If someone wants to bulk and cut because that's the way they would prefer to do it then great. Its their goals and their life.

    Nice setup. This assumes that he gains 50 kgs and only 4 are fat. But yeah that is a good way to show what you're trying to say here.

    Jim Wendler has a few words to say to you.
     

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