Opinion Make it illegal for politicians to lie?

[Trotsky]

Well my reply to the second part is already in my post: "harsher treatment of lying politicians, for it to be the norm that a really big lie forces a resignation or period of apology and social "probation" enforced by the voting public. We should value the truth more than we do." That especially covers the big lies like fraudulent statistics. Still leaves room for the more subtle, misleading lies, but deception is something that is never going away.

It's on us because politics is choices about values, and our values are reflected pretty accurately in most areas, with wealth distribution being the biggest exception, and maintaining that biggest of lies requires gargantuan effort. We like lying scumbags who pander to our base emotional needs, and most people I see protesting that are at best a pack of much-protesting Lady Macbeths . I also don't think politicians are, at a baseline irrespective of today's Republicans (who go much further than merely pandering to our base emotional needs), quite as dishonest as we think they are. I'm a notch to the skeptical side of the JVS view (that they are significantly more honest than us), because branding is fundamentally dishonest and politicians are euphemizing and branding constantly, and can't help but be somewhat dishonest all the time because of that.

I think it's still fundamentally impossible to be sufficiently honest on a personal level, as a political representative, and be effective. Even figuring out when to act as a trustee and when to act as a delegate can put you into impossible corners where identifying the morally right thing is difficult and somebody is getting fucked no matter what you decide. I don't think people are good at thinking about those sorts of dynamics, because most people aren't very intelligent. The best they can do is default to cynicism so they won't feel fooled.

 

[OverCoronavirus Pressure]

Is it really such a big deal to lie anymore?

Ffs, we approved of it as a country by putting the most shameless liar on the planet in the highest office.

 

[Mendacious]

They need to lie sometimes though don't they?
I actually think all of them should have their salaries cut by around 50%, permanently. No one should decide to be a politician because it's a well paying job with perks. We'd then hopefully see many more people get into politics because they genuinely want to serve society.

If you want to lower corruption, reducing their pay is not the way to do it. Ideally you would have a small pool of well paid politicians so that they don’t have incentives to be bribed.

 

[tonni]

How about we make them wear tracksuits with advertisements on them, to see who their corporate sponsors are? Like NASCAR drivers.

 

[tonni]

Flubberlog?

 

[djacobox372]

Would Snopes be the arbitrator of truth?

Or perhaps we need a Ministry of Truth...

If it's a legal issue, than the courts would be.

 

[ultramanhyata]

I'm a notch to the skeptical side of the JVS view (that they are significantly more honest than us), because branding is fundamentally dishonest and politicians are euphemizing and branding constantly, and can't help but be somewhat dishonest all the time because of that.

Did @Jack V Savage really say he thought the average politician was significantly more honest than the average private citizen?? And does this assume the class and educational demo's of the politician and citizen are equal?

 

[G-19]

I don't share the unfair disdain for Snopes, who do a fuckton of good in this world, but basically this. It's dystopian for people to be under oath all the time. It's also easy to get facts wrong and it's sometimes hard to tell a lie from an error. I would be okay with harsher treatment of lying politicians, for it to be the norm that a really big lie forces a resignation or period of apology and social "probation" enforced by the voting public. We should value the truth more than we do.

What about lying while performing an official function? I understand the term “official function” would be under debate but I’m sure a general guideline could be set into place. It would definitely do more good than just allowing politicians to say whatever they like and then change their mind when it’s no longer of use. I’d love to see more politicians with integrity and less using their position for personal gain. “We should value the truth more than we do”. I agree wholeheartedly with that statement.

 

[RetiredSlave]

Im not for making it illegal but perhaps having a mandatory polygraph hookup and/or body language analysis by an expert for speech events would be enough of a deterrent. Good luck with that though.

Also I did not... not just post that comment.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Did @Jack V Savage really say he thought the average politician was significantly more honest than the average private citizen?? And does this assume the class and educational demo's of the politician and citizen are equal?

I don't recall what exact comments he's referring to, but, yeah, I think that's right. And, no, I don't make any adjustments like that.

Look at how everyone reacts to Trump. I don't think we've ever had a high-level American politician who is that unconcerned with the accuracy of what he says (not even close, probably), but how does he stack up against an average person? I'd guess that 5%-10% of the population is as habitually dishonest or at least as unconcerned with honesty as Trump.

 

[ultramanhyata]

Look at how everyone reacts to Trump. I don't think we've ever had a high-level American politician who is that unconcerned with the accuracy of what he says (not even close, probably), but how does he stack up against an average person? I'd guess that 5%-10% of the population is as habitually dishonest or at least as unconcerned with honesty as Trump.

So you think putting Trump in the bottom integrity decile is a good argument for the average politician being significantly more honest than the average private citizen?

 

[Jack V Savage]

So you think putting Trump in the bottom integrity decile is a good argument for the average politician being significantly more honest than the average private citizen?

It's not an argument; it's an illustration. By far the most dishonest high-level politician we've seen would be unusual but not an extreme outlier in the general public. It would be like illustrating how hard MLB pitchers throw by pointing out what people said about prime Jamie Moyer and noting that Jamie Moyer threw harder than 90%-plus of adult men.

 

[faustian]

I don't recall what exact comments he's referring to, but, yeah, I think that's right. And, no, I don't make any adjustments like that.

Look at how everyone reacts to Trump. I don't think we've ever had a high-level American politician who is that unconcerned with the accuracy of what he says (not even close, probably), but how does he stack up against an average person? I'd guess that 5%-10% of the population is as habitually dishonest or at least as unconcerned with honesty as Trump.

This assumes that all lies are perceivable

 

[Jack V Savage]

This assumes that all lies are perceivable

It doesn't assume anything. I'm just illustrating a position with an appeal to common observations. I'd assume that we all know that Trump's dishonesty is on another level for a politician and have noticed that we probably have encountered people like that not often but enough that we've seen it before many times.

I'm not trying to build a case here; I'm just saying, "think about it some more, and you'll probably see where I'm coming from."