Maia at MW...was it that bad?

[MikeMcMann]

Maia is on a great run at WW and for whatever reason that has lead a number of people who appear to be Maia fans to absolutely crap on his pre title shot run at MW suggesting his opposition was garbage and his title shot undeserved.

BTW if anyone knows how to access RANKING data quick and easily and is willing please provide me the rank of Maia's opponent at the time they fought and I will edit in.

I have been pointing out that both his run at MW and currently at WW were/are great runs. There are far more similarities then differences.

Is this a case of simply people putting RECENCY over fights that took place some years ago? Or is their definitive proof that Maia's run at MW was poor while his run at WW is miles better.

Lets look at the FACTS, as I personally think Maia's run at MW pre the title shot was every bit as good, if not better then his current run at WW.

- OK start with the title shot at MW. Was it deserved? Yes, as an injury substation Maia was in a position as the best guy available and thus got the shot. He is in a similar position at WW now. He is not next in line but with an injury you can understand why he would be called upon.

Next lets look at his record.

..................................MW............................WW

Wins...........................6................................7
Win %........................86%...........................78%
Losses........................1...............................2
Loss %.......................14%..........................22%
Finish%Wins..............86%..........................43%
Decision%Wins..........17%..........................57%


Conclusion 1 : Advantage goes firmly to his MW run in terms of winning at a higher rate and winning via finish far more often.

Next lets look at the actual competition he beat in both division and their records.

MW...........................................Win %........Fights................. Title Shot
Ryan Jensen............................ 85%......... 13......................
Ed Herman...............................76%.......... 21.....................
Jason MacDonald....................73%.......... 29.....................
Nate Quarry............................ 83%.......... 12..................... Yes
Chael Sonnen......................... 69%.......... 32..................... Later
Dan Miller................................79%.......... 14......................
Averages ................................78%...........20

WW...........................................Win %........Fights................. Title Shot
Dong Hyun Kim........................ 83%........... 18.....................
Rick Story................................. 74%........... 19.....................
Jon Fitch................................... 80%........... 30.....................Yes
Alexander Yakovlev................. 81%............ 26....................
Ryan LaFlare...........................100%............11....................
Neil Magny............................... 83%............ 18....................
Gunnar Nelson........................ 88%............ 16.....................
Averages..................................84%............ 20

Conclusion 2 - Maia's WW competition has a slightly higher win percent (most of which is attributed to Ryan LaFlare being 100%) . I see no meaningful difference in who he beat based on Win% of opponents but WW gets a slight edge.

FINAL CONCLUSION (to be added to when ranking data is available) - So far it is very hard to say his runs at MW or WW were much greater then the other or that there was a meaningful difference in the level of comp fought. They are both solid runs against similar level opponents. The more obvious difference is that in his MW run he was far more likely to FINISH his opponents and his WW he is far more likely to go to decision. Over-all thus far the slight edge goes to his MW run.



Lets keep the emotive (fanboy) replies out this thread and try to build a logic case. Saying 'watch the fights' or 'these guys are much better' without providing facts (who did they beat, what was their record, etc) is not the goal. I already know emotive fans can crap on anything by just offering a weak opinion that is not backed up, so lets keep that out of this thread. thx.


EDIT.

I'll keep piling in the FACTS as the fanboys keep telling us to ignore them.





Ranks of Maia WW opponent and Maia at time of fight from Sherdog.com

Gunnar Nelson Rank 13. Maia 8
Neil Magny Rank 13. Maia 9
Ryan LaFaFlare Outside top 15. Maia 10
Alexander Yakovlev Outside top 15. Maia 9
Jon Fitch 5. Maia 11
Rick Story Outside top 15. Maia outside top 15
Dong Hyun Kim Outside top 15. Maia outside top

At WW we can see Maia's only fought one top 10 opponent (Fitch) while the rest were top 13 or beyond top 15.

I will dig up the MW rankings which according to most here should be far worse. We'll see.

 

[P0rkchop]

He was a less complete fighter at MW than he is now

 

[GordaoPreguico]

WW run is a better group of fighters but that shouldnt take away from the MW run.

 

[MikeMcMann]

WW run is a better group of fighters but that shouldnt take away from the MW run.

Based on what? Please provide some facts or even one fact as we all know the shertard penitent to value anything that happens recently over anything that happens in the past.

If every WW fighter he beat to date retired today what have they achieved TODAY that makes them so much better then the MW fighters? One fact...ANY fact please.

 

[KungFuRabbi]

Not only was Maia a replacement when he got his MW title shot,he wasn't even the UFC`s first option for a replacement

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_112

Jon Fitch was a top 5 ranked WW on a couple of sites when Maia beat him

http://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings/5/Sherdogs-Official-Mixed-Martial-Arts-Rankings-49475

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/1/31/3937426/bloody-elbow-january-2013-meta-rankings-welterweight

I don't remember him EVER beating a top 5 MW

His best win was Sonnen and Sonnen was barely top 10

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/2/13/756576/bloody-elbow-february-mma

I can't find the link to the sherdog ranking right now showing Sonnen barely top 10

To those using Fight matrix,it should be noted that site is usually in the minority

I gotta go to sleep now

 

[Glumberjack]

Never seen anyone slagging Maia's middleweight career but to me he just seems better suited to welterweight because at 170 he has very good strength and is able to ragdoll many of his opponents on top of his large advantage in technique. At 185 he was mostly relying on technique and nothing else.

 

[Exemplar]

It's about timing mostly and size in a secondary. Maia is good no matter what, but WW at the present provides a clearer path to the strap.

Which looks better to you if you are Maia: Lawler or Rockhold?

Remember for many fans everything is comes down to: you are the champ OR you are like all the rest.

 

[moreorless87]

He was a less complete fighter at MW than he is now

Honestly I can't really see this, his striking is still pretty so so today and his grappling was great back in the day as well.

I think the two issues are...

1.Size - He was a smallish MW but is a largish WW making his wrestling more effective.

2.Style - There have never been many elite sub fighters at WW and I think a lot of wrestlers especially just didn't no how to cope with it, the same way Chael didn't at MW.

 

[Kumason]

Based on what? Please provide some facts or even one fact as we all know the shertard penitent to value anything that happens recently over anything that happens in the past.

If every WW fighter he beat to date retired today what have they achieved TODAY that makes them so much better then the MW fighters? One fact...ANY fact please.

I think he's probably basing it off of his opinion,which is probably the opinion of most hardcore fans.It is ok just to say your opinion right?I rarely post here cause it's filled with idiots,but there's not a lot of people that would put that MW group over the WW group.That WW group is a much better group of fighters,and getting the rankings for that MW group is a moot point seeing as though there were so few MW's at that time.I have missed maybe 1 ufc as it happened in maybe the last 15 years and been watching since I got UFC 1 on ppv,I tend to base things very well for how they were when it happened,including those fighters careers,abilities, and placement among the division at the time.That's my opinion and I think it's a pretty obvious one,the WW group is a better group of fighters period.You sound like a 12 year old with your facts crap.

 

[SKITZADACTYL]

what the fuck is all this

 

[GordaoPreguico]

Based on what? Please provide some facts or even one fact as we all know the shertard penitent to value anything that happens recently over anything that happens in the past.

If every WW fighter he beat to date retired today what have they achieved TODAY that makes them so much better then the MW fighters? One fact...ANY fact please.

Just looking at the list of names I can say that the WW group he beat are better fighters. You seem way to invested in this.

 

[Ralph Wiggum]

Today's MWs would give Maia a much harder time than the ones he faced. Wiedman, Rockhold, Jacare, Machida, Mousasi, and NOT FOR GAY JESUS! would all really really test Maia.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Not only was Maia a replacement when he got his MW title shot,he wasn't even the UFC`s first option for a replacement

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_112

Jon Fitch was a top 5 ranked WW on a couple of sites when Maia beat him

http://www.sherdog.com/news/rankings/5/Sherdogs-Official-Mixed-Martial-Arts-Rankings-49475

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/1/31/3937426/bloody-elbow-january-2013-meta-rankings-welterweight

I don't remember him EVER beating a top 5 MW

His best win was Sonnen and Sonnen was barely top 10

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/2/13/756576/bloody-elbow-february-mma

I can't find the link to the sherdog ranking right now showing Sonnen barely top 10

To those using Fight matrix,it should be noted that site is usually in the minority

I gotta go to sleep now

If he was to get a title shot at WW now it would be under almost exactly the same circumstances.

He certainly is not the UFC choice NOW for a WW shot. If there was an injury and they were looking for a substitute he would like be in the running even if not first choice.

So AGAIN, my position that his run at WW is basically the same is supported by what you have pointed out.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Never seen anyone slagging Maia's middleweight career but to me he just seems better suited to welterweight because at 170 he has very good strength and is able to ragdoll many of his opponents on top of his large advantage in technique. At 185 he was mostly relying on technique and nothing else.

Funny then that at MW he was FINISHING his opponents at a much higher rate???

 

[MikeMcMann]

It's about timing mostly and size in a secondary. Maia is good no matter what, but WW at the present provides a clearer path to the strap.

Which looks better to you if you are Maia: Lawler or Rockhold?

Remember for many fans everything is comes down to: you are the champ OR you are like all the rest.

Well he had a pretty clear path to the strap at MW as well and he, in fact fought for the strap.

So this is not about Maia at MW today but rather his past run. Hard to say his likelihood of a WW or MW title shot is higher at WW when compared to his past MW run.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I think he's probably basing it off of his opinion,which is probably the opinion of most hardcore fans.It is ok just to say your opinion right?I rarely post here cause it's filled with idiots,but there's not a lot of people that would put that MW group over the WW group.That WW group is a much better group of fighters,and getting the rankings for that MW group is a moot point seeing as though there were so few MW's at that time.I have missed maybe 1 ufc as it happened in maybe the last 15 years and been watching since I got UFC 1 on ppv,I tend to base things very well for how they were when it happened,including those fighters careers,abilities, and placement among the division at the time.That's my opinion and I think it's a pretty obvious one,the WW group is a better group of fighters period.You sound like a 12 year old with your facts crap.

No it useless in fact when trying to do an evidence based examination.

Look it could be my opinion that Brock was the greatest fighter in MMA history and would have beat anyone prime for prime. (btw that is not my opinion). I can argue he is the best HW of all time based on that narrow view.

I have every right to believe that but what I CANNOT DO is support that position using his record or any of the facts available.

it can also be my view and opinion that my brothers 6 year old kid will grow up to be the best basketball player of all time. But again what I cannot do is support that in any way using fact.

But it is fine to be a fan boy or parent using only your opinion to make arguments. But please step aside and out when others want to have a fact based discussion. Because otherwise nothing matters but 'no I think I am right...no I think I am...' with nothing being offered to substantiate why.

I love that you call it 'facts crap' and say using them makes someone sound like a 12 year old.

I guess your idea of debate is 'nah huh, the MW are better because that is just my opinion man' and us going back forth without ever offering a fact.

 

[Glumberjack]

Funny then that at MW he was FINISHING his opponents at a much higher rate???

His first several fights he was but when he started fighting top 10-15 opponents regularly he started winning decisions until he dropped to 170, where he finished Story, DHK and Magny, all of whom are very tough outs. But when you're consistently fighting top uys at any weight class, finishes will be harder to come by, especially for a grappling oriented fighter.

 

[HI SCOTT NEWMAN]

Never seen anyone slagging Maia's middleweight career but to me he just seems better suited to welterweight because at 170 he has very good strength and is able to ragdoll many of his opponents on top of his large advantage in technique. At 185 he was mostly relying on technique and nothing else.

True, good points.. this is the main reason he is better at 170

 

[Kumason]

No it useless in fact when trying to do an evidence based examination.

Look it could be my opinion that Brock was the greatest fighter in MMA history and would have beat anyone prime for prime. (btw that is not my opinion). I can argue he is the best HW of all time based on that narrow view.

I have every right to believe that but what I CANNOT DO is support that position using his record or any of the facts available.

it can also be my view and opinion that my brothers 6 year old kid will grow up to be the best basketball player of all time. But again what I cannot do is support that in any way using fact.

But it is fine to be a fan boy or parent using only your opinion to make arguments. But please step aside and out when others want to have a fact based discussion. Because otherwise nothing matters but 'no I think I am right...no I think I am...' with nothing being offered to substantiate why.

I love that you call it 'facts crap' and say using them makes someone sound like a 12 year old.

I guess your idea of debate is 'nah huh, the MW are better because that is just my opinion man' and us going back forth without ever offering a fact.

But what are the facts actually going to prove?What facts will you use?There's nothing you can use to prove anything.People could read your findings,whatever they might be,and 90% will still think the WW group is a better group of fighters.Probably 95% of people...so isn't that proof enough that you'd be a 5% minority in your thinking?What a waste of time lol have fun with this and proving everyone wrong!Yes, facts crap because only a little kid would think they'd get something useful out of putting some stats together and calling it facts.It's mma,there's a million things to consider when trying to do something like this,you just won't get anywhere.

 

[PeterGriffin]

1. MW was a far weaker division back then.
2. Although Maia was smaller than most MW's, he also fought mostly grapplers at MW.
3. Almost every fighter has considerably more experience with BJJ now, the game has changed since Maia was subbing out grapplers who he had a clear advantage over at MW.
4. His resume at WW is better, simply by tapping out Magny and the clinic he ran on Gunner alone.

185lb K1 Maia was never, ever going to beat Anderson Silva... 170lb Maia could conceivably sub Lawler if he gets the fight to where it suits his strengths.