Maia at MW...was it that bad?

[Exemplar]

Well he had a pretty clear path to the strap at MW as well and he, in fact fought for the strap.

So this is not about Maia at MW today but rather his past run. Hard to say his likelihood of a WW or MW title shot is higher at WW when compared to his past MW run.

You don't look backward about these things... only dorky fans like us do. At the end of the day Maia had either Weidman/Rockhold or Lawler as go-foward considerations... I'm fairly certain he'd favor the Lawler option.

 

[ilfirin]

Wasn't bad at all. He was doing just fine. However, WW is probably a more suitable weight class for him.

 

[MikeMcMann]

His first several fights he was but when he started fighting top 10-15 opponents regularly he started winning decisions until he dropped to 170, where he finished Story, DHK and Magny, all of whom are very tough outs. But when you're consistently fighting top uys at any weight class, finishes will be harder to come by, especially for a grappling oriented fighter.

You are partially correct.

Yes fighting top guys typically leads to less finishes but the MW he was finishing were about the same rank as the WW he is decisioning. They were all top 10+/- a spot or two.

And that has been a point I made prior that Maia has yet to be tested by the truly top guys at WW and therefore predicting he will have more success against that group then he did against the best MW is just projection.

I ask you to look at the OP again and the WW he has beat and tell me outside Fitch what the CURRENT LEGACY of any of the other WW's he beat would be today if they never fought again?

that is the missing component here as almost everyone is commenting based on what they THINK is the future potential of the WW he beat and are using that to guess instead of speaking to where they ACTUALLY were at the time he beat them.

IF none of those WW ever fought again they would literally be almost nobodies at WW. None of them have done anything YET to distinguish themselves at WW, other than look promising.

 

[MikeMcMann]

But what are the facts actually going to prove?What facts will you use?There's nothing you can use to prove anything.People could read your findings,whatever they might be,and 90% will still think the WW group is a better group of fighters.Probably 95% of people...so isn't that proof enough that you'd be a 5% minority in your thinking?What a waste of time lol have fun with this and proving everyone wrong!Yes, facts crap because only a little kid would think they'd get something useful out of putting some stats together and calling it facts.It's mma,there's a million things to consider when trying to do something like this,you just won't get anywhere.

How about the things used in almost every comparison you will see analysts talk about.

Things like win/loss record. Finishes. Ranking of opponents. Opponents Win/loss record at the time of their fights.

Are those not good things to use when comparing fighters instead of the fanboy 'no I just think my guy is better' without offering anything quantitative as to why?

And ya you are correct that I could put up a case why Michael Jordan is a better basketball player then my 6 year old nephew and his parents have eve4ry right to hold a different opinion, anyone can hold any opinion. I just suggest that if they want to take that opinion out into the public forum and refuse to offer any proof and anything other than 'that is just what I believe man', then we ignore them.

I get it, I get it, you can find Shertards argue everyday Fedor, Anderson and GSP (the GOAT's) are really nothing but over inflated cans and that 'is like their opinion man'. You seem to be one that thinks all opinions are valid and worthy of consideration and they are not. You can hold it but don't expect people not to dismiss or mock you for them if you cannot back them up.

 

[MikeMcMann]

You don't look backward about these things... only dorky fans like us do. At the end of the day Maia had either Weidman/Rockhold or Lawler as go-foward considerations... I'm fairly certain he'd favor the Lawler option.

WTF?

So if I want to compare the strengths and challenges of say Tito's run to the LHW title shot and Chuck Liddells, you say we cannot compare who they fought on their journey and instead must just enter into a hypothetical about how they would do against todays top LHW. Again WTF??

Of course when comparing the two's strength of opponents and schedule and actual records and performance you would use WHO THEY FOUGHT and not try and guess what they would do against todays talent.

 

[PeterGriffin]

He might not have as many finishes at 170, but he's fighting better opponents, and the overall sport has evolved considerably since he dropped to where he belonged in the first place. Most fighters have their diets and weight cuts down to a science, and overall, fighters are more well-rounded. Maia's fighting better and smarter at 38 than he was at 32-34.

Besides, you're trying to compare something that's long gone, with something that's not even done yet.

 

[Monacomo]

No his mw run wasnt that bad

 

[OriginMMA]

Honestly I can't really see this, his striking is still pretty so so today and his grappling was great back in the day as well.

I think the two issues are...

1.Size - He was a smallish MW but is a largish WW making his wrestling more effective.

2.Style - There have never been many elite sub fighters at WW and I think a lot of wrestlers especially just didn't no how to cope with it, the same way Chael didn't at MW.

Hes better at chaining take downs now imo.

 

[KungFuRabbi]

If he was to get a title shot at WW now it would be under almost exactly the same circumstances.

He certainly is not the UFC choice NOW for a WW shot. If there was an injury and they were looking for a substitute he would like be in the running even if not first choice.

So AGAIN, my position that his run at WW is basically the same is supported by what you have pointed out.

No,it is not the same

I can't name a top 5 fighter he beat at MW

I can name a top 5 fighter he's beaten at WW(Fitch)

If he beats Brown,that will be his 2nd top 10 win at MW.He never beat this many top 10 MWs

 

[BKB92]

I agree that his MW run is really underrated, his wins from Herman to Sonnen are all quality wins with finishes over some very underrated guys like Herman, MacDonald and Quarry. His best win at WW in hindisght is probably Magny which in my opinion is inferior to the Sonnen win which was really impressive.

Overall though I'd side with the WW run as he has faced and beaten more top 25 opponents than in his MW run.

 

[Sigoff2]

Dong Hyun Kim is a somebody and has been for some time now. If the Dong retired now He would definitely be remembered better than those middleweights Maia beat. Story was most likely a fringe top ten as well when he lost to Maia. I say a win over Brown makes 4 definitive top 10 wins at WW: Fitch, Dong, Magny, and soon to be Matt Brown.

 

[The Best JG]

He earned a title shot so no

 

[MikeMcMann]

No,it is not the same

I can't name a top 5 fighter he beat at MW

I can name a top 5 fighter he's beaten at WW(Fitch)

If he beats Brown,that will be his 2nd top 10 win at MW.He never beat this many top 10 MWs

It is the same.

No one is saying as of today he deserves a title shot but he certainly is close enough that with an injury he could get the call, the same way he did at MW.

And Ive always given Maia credit for Fitch and Sonnen as his biggest wins in the division respectively. They are equal imo. Yes Fitch was ranked higher at the time and that is an important aspect but there is another measurement that almost always comes in that you are ignoring which is the opponents record after the fight. This is almost always done to measure if an opponent was on a downswing (heading out of prime) or not. Maia got Fitch at the start of downturn whereas as he fought Sonnen at the peak of his prime run.

I call that basically a wash and think it is hard pressed to say one win was bigger than the other.

And I'm not sure your ranking at time of fight info is correct. I'm hoping someone helps fill that blank in as I am pretty sure there is not a big disparity in where the opponents where ranked at time of fight.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

dude you dont let this go, the merly fact that you are putting on the same level his fights vs Ed herman and Jason Mcdonald vs what he did to fitch magny laflare and gunnar speaks that you absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

 

[Exemplar]

WTF?

So if I want to compare the strengths and challenges of say Tito's run to the LHW title shot and Chuck Liddells, you say we cannot compare who they fought on their journey and instead must just enter into a hypothetical about how they would do against todays top LHW. Again WTF??

Of course when comparing the two's strength of opponents and schedule and actual records and performance you would use WHO THEY FOUGHT and not try and guess what they would do against todays talent.

Apologies, clearly you're viewing through the lens of a fan. No fault in that. I was attempting to provide a view of Maia's option's through his lens. Apparently you didn't pickup on that or you're just looking to argue. In the hope that it's not about arguing for argument's sake, I'll reiterate. If you still wish to argue, have at it... I'll be giving my attentions to Mr. Jameson.

All I was saying essentially is that at the time Maia made the decision to vacate MW and make WW his home, I'm sure he was looking forward at his opponents at WW... most importantly the champ (GSP, Big Rigg or Lawler - can't remember who had it then). He wasn't mulling over why his run at MW fizzled.

/cheers

 

[Sigoff2]

D

dude you dont let this go, the merly fact that you are putting on the same level his fights vs Ed herman and Jason Mcdonald vs what he did to fitch magny laflare and gunnar speaks that you absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

Don't forget Dong Hyun Kim and Story

 

[MikeMcMann]

dude you dont let this go, the merly fact that you are putting on the same level his fights vs Ed herman and Jason Mcdonald vs what he did to fitch magny laflare and gunnar speaks that you absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

Why did you ignore Sonnen as if I was excluding him and only comparing Ed and Jason to Fitch, Magny and Gunnar?

Maybe because you know your point is completely lost if you include Sonnen as I do???

I don't know why people act like the WW contenders (outside Fitch) that Maia has beat are so great compared to the MW fighters you guys are basically saying are cans.

Again if Gunnar retired immediately after the Maia fight what had he accomplished at WW? Please give us his record, his best wins, who his top wins were and what their records were, and promote what makes him great. I want to know?

From a factual basis, Jason MacDonald MMA bjj holds up to Gunnar's. So again without guessing what the future might hold please use some facts, ANY FACTS to explain why the WW fighters are so much better then the MW ones are?

In other words stop simply 'stating' it and instead give facts to 'prove' it.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Apologies, clearly you're viewing through the lens of a fan. No fault in that. I was attempting to provide a view of Maia's option's through his lens. Apparently you didn't pickup on that or you're just looking to argue. In the hope that it's not about arguing for argument's sake, I'll reiterate. If you still wish to argue, have at it... I'll be giving my attentions to Mr. Jameson.

All I was saying essentially is that at the time Maia made the decision to vacate MW and make WW his home, I'm sure he was looking forward at his opponents at WW... most importantly the champ (GSP, Big Rigg or Lawler - can't remember who had it then). He wasn't mulling over why his run at MW fizzled.

/cheers

Ahhh so you came into a thread created with one topic and decided to discuss something different. Your apologies accepted as you clearly cannot follow a conversation or contribute anything of value. MW, LHW, WW, HW, the divisions they all evolve and change. That has nothing, NOTHING to do with the discussion in this thread.

 

[KungFuRabbi]

It is the same.

No one is saying as of today he deserves a title shot but he certainly is close enough that with an injury he could get the call, the same way he did at MW.

And Ive always given Maia credit for Fitch and Sonnen as his biggest wins in the division respectively. They are equal imo. Yes Fitch was ranked higher at the time and that is an important aspect but there is another measurement that almost always comes in that you are ignoring which is the opponents record after the fight. This is almost always done to measure if an opponent was on a downswing (heading out of prime) or not. Maia got Fitch at the start of downturn whereas as he fought Sonnen at the peak of his prime run.

I call that basically a wash and think it is hard pressed to say one win was bigger than the other.

And I'm not sure your ranking at time of fight info is correct. I'm hoping someone helps fill that blank in as I am pretty sure there is not a big disparity in where the opponents where ranked at time of fight.

It is the same.

No one is saying as of today he deserves a title shot but he certainly is close enough that with an injury he could get the call, the same way he did at MW.

And Ive always given Maia credit for Fitch and Sonnen as his biggest wins in the division respectively. They are equal imo. Yes Fitch was ranked higher at the time and that is an important aspect but there is another measurement that almost always comes in that you are ignoring which is the opponents record after the fight. This is almost always done to measure if an opponent was on a downswing (heading out of prime) or not. Maia got Fitch at the start of downturn whereas as he fought Sonnen at the peak of his prime run.

I call that basically a wash and think it is hard pressed to say one win was bigger than the other.

And I'm not sure your ranking at time of fight info is correct. I'm hoping someone helps fill that blank in as I am pretty sure there is not a big disparity in where the opponents where ranked at time of fight.

The record they had after the fight is Irrevalent

Thats like me saying Edgar beat a past prime Maynard because Maynard went 1- 4 after.

And good luck finding a rankings where they have the fighters exact ranking the day of the fight

 

[Redhawks100]

Lol this thread.