Macron: Secularism has never killed anyone.

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

You fake morals aren't working on me.
You don't value non western lives.
That's why you avoid talking about the systematic barbaric actions carried out bu western governements as we speak now.

troll account try harder yawn

 

[Islam Imamate]

No sense bothering with Kafir anymore.

France won't find a peaceful solution to this issue unless Europe closes it's borders to Islam and deports all migrants. Then maybe the citizens will eventually become more secular.

What did I say that's off here? You're the one who says its okay to criticize beliefs right? So why are Republic values, which are beliefs, off limits?

If you want to say they are then fine but you can do that and say you support free speech and the right to offend, those are mutually exclusive.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

If that's the line you're going to take then STFU about "muh free speech" and admit you don't tolerate secular blasphemy against the Repbulic and STFU about "the right to offend" when you won't allow Muslims to hurt French sensibilities merely by practicing their faith.

Did you look?
Saudi Arabia leads Arab and Muslim world in condemning terrorist murder of French teacher

Paris Beheading: Muslims in France condemn teacher's killing

Leaders from the UK, US and Middle East express solidarity with France as soldiers are deployed to guard schools and churches

Arsenal's Mesut Ozil condemns shocking recent terrorist attacks in France
Indian Muslims Condemn KIllings in France

Fair enough on the calls for peace, I concede that the media have not been reporting those as they should.

Now when you write this:
Khabib Khanate said: ↑
The Republican values that Macron is saying are above critique are also just beliefs, why can't Muslims criticize those without being targeted by Macron's crackdown? Why do Muslims have to fall in line with the French thought police?

Muslims criticise French values / secularism all the time and macron is not cracking down at all on that. The crackdown is on the apology of murders / call for hate / hate speech. WTF are you talking about?

And irrespective of that, regarding your last sentence, when in France, yes, fall in line with the French "thought police" (whichever purpose that loaded hyperbole of yours is supposed to fullfil), regardless of your faith. But that statement of yours is so loaded that I have very little hope that this exchange with you is going to have any worth.

 

[TheWave111]

Fair enough on the calls for peace, I concede that the media have not been reporting those as they should.

Now when you write this:
Khabib Khanate said: ↑
The Republican values that Macron is saying are above critique are also just beliefs, why can't Muslims criticize those without being targeted by Macron's crackdown? Why do Muslims have to fall in line with the French thought police?

Muslims criticise French values / secularism all the time and macron is not cracking down at all on that. The crackdown is on the apology of murders / call for hate / hate speech. WTF are you talking about?

And irrespective of that, regarding your last sentence, when in France, yes, fall in line with the French "thought police" (whichever purpose that loaded hyperbole of yours is supposed to fullfil), regardless of your faith. But that statement of yours is so loaded that I have very little hope that this exchange with you is going to have any worth.

Lol. You don't even know what you are writing.
I don't think you read his comment.
'hate speech' is questioning these double standard values.
People are thrown in prison for expressing themselves.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Lol. You don't even know what you are writing.
I don't think you read his comment.
'hate speech' is questioning these double standard values.
People are thrown in prison for expressing themselves.

Please don't @ me, your posts are shit trolling and you are not even really making sense, even when you are trying.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Now when you write this:
Khabib Khanate said: ↑
The Republican values that Macron is saying are above critique are also just beliefs, why can't Muslims criticize those without being targeted by Macron's crackdown? Why do Muslims have to fall in line with the French thought police?

Muslims criticise French values / secularism all the time and macron is not cracking down at all on that. The crackdown is on the apology of murders / call for hate / hate speech. WTF are you talking about?

I'm referring to the recent measures Macron is trying to pass which cracks down on anti-Republican speech. Perhaps before that was allowed but it looks like Macron has a change of method in mind

The proposed measures also included offering Arabic instruction in public schools, tightening control on private religious education, limiting home schooling, and cracking down on speech or activities that contradict so-called Republican values such as gender-segregated hours at municipal swimming pools. Taken together, Macron’s ideas raised eyebrows. “It’s a comprehensive institutional framework to control and regulate Islam, with a clear repressive drive,” said Marwan Muhammad, a prominent Muslim activist and the former president of an anti-discrimination group called the Collective Against Islamophobia in France.

And irrespective of that, regarding your last sentence, when in France, yes, fall in line with the French "thought police" (whichever purpose that loaded hyperbole of yours is supposed to fullfil), regardless of your faith. But that statement of yours is so loaded that I have very little hope that this exchange with you is going to have any worth.

When I say thought police I mean the government's increased willingness to regulate the speech and beliefs of Muslims and Islamic organizations. Assimilation is different, Muslims shouldn't compromise their faith but they should try to assimilate as much as possible short of compromising their faith. Just bringing over your North African or Pakistani customs and clinging to them for dear life and creating ghettos and stuff is wrong. France in particular makes it a little harder than most Western countries because they make a bigger deal out of certain things like the hijab, which is banned for civil servants and in public universities, but ultimately its up to the believer to make the tough choices necessary there.

In the US we have ethnic enclaves like Chinatown and Little Italy and people tend to like them and they become local tourist spots but I doubt the Muslim ghettos of Europe are attracting any local tourists for Ramadan the way Chinatown does during the Chinese New Year. So if you want to keep your old customs and have an ethnic enclave you have to do so in a way that respects the sensitivities of the wider culture and enriches it rather than creating an eye sore and a hot spot for crime and so on. Part of that is on the state which could improve things like its housing and labor policy but regardless of what the state does Muslims should try to integrate better.

 

[TheWave111]

Please don't @ me, your posts are shit trolling and you are not even really making sense, even when you are trying.

You don't have arguments left for your double standard.
It's all about control for you. You don't support freedom of speech. It's only a selective speech. The ones that question that are thrown in prison for hate speech.

 

[TheWave111]

I'm referring to the recent measures Macron is trying to pass which cracks down on anti-Republican speech. Perhaps before that was allowed but it looks like Macron has a change of method in mind


When I say thought police I mean the government's increased willingness to regulate the speech and beliefs of Muslims and Islamic organizations. Assimilation is different, Muslims shouldn't compromise their faith but they should try to assimilate as much as possible short of compromising their faith. Just bringing over your North Africa or Pakistani customs and clinging to them for dear life and creating ghettos and stuff is wrong. France in particular makes it a little harder than most Western countries because they make a bigger deal out of certain things like the hijab, which is banned for civil servants and in public universities, but ultimately its up to the believer to make the tough choices necessary there.

In the US we have ethnic enclaves like Chinatown and Little Italy and people tend to like them and they become local tourist spots but I doubt the Muslim ghettos of Europe are attracting any local tourists for Ramadan the way Chinatown does during the Chinese New Year. So if you want to keep your old customs and have an ethnic enclave you have to do so in a way that respects the sensitivities of the wider culture and enriches it rather than creating an eye sore and a hot spot for crime and so on. Part of that is on the state which could improve things like its housing and labor policy but regardless of what the state does Muslims should try to integrate better.

Ghettos are created by the state. Do you think that people would stay there if they had a choice.
People who live there are poor and have no choice to live in these cheaper areas.
Your comparison with chinatown and little Italy fails. These immigrants are way longer in the US than the immigrants in Europe.
The italians and chinese faced the same problems in the US.

The state can get rid off gettos by offering homes for different classes in the same street. But the state profits from these 'ethnic' tensions for political power.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Ghettos are created by the state. Do you think that people would stay there if they had a choice.
People who live there are poor and have no choice to live in these cheaper areas.
Your comparison with chinatown and little Italy fails. These immigrants are way longer in the US than the immigrants in Europe.
The italians and chinese faced the same problems in the US.

Yes that's why I said the state could do more when it comes to things like housing policy.

Its true that there seems to be a bit of a life-cycle to immigrant communities and the first generations have a rougher time of things and are also more troublesome. Italian immigrants brought organized crime for instance. But the situation in France seems uniquely bad.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I'm referring to the recent measures Macron is trying to pass which cracks down on anti-Republican speech. Perhaps before that was allowed but it looks like Macron has a change of method in mind


When I say thought police I mean the government's increased willingness to regulate the speech and beliefs of Muslims and Islamic organizations. Assimilation is different, Muslims shouldn't compromise their faith but they should try to assimilate as much as possible short of compromising their faith. Just bringing over your North Africa or Pakistani customs and clinging to them for dear life and creating ghettos and stuff is wrong. France in particular makes it a little harder than most Western countries because they make a bigger deal out of certain things like the hijab, which is banned for civil servants and in public universities, but ultimately its up to the believer to make the tough choices necessary there.

In the US we have ethnic enclaves like Chinatown and Little Italy and people tend to like them and they become local tourist spots but I doubt the Muslim ghettos of Europe are attracting any local tourists for Ramadan the way Chinatown does during the Chinese New Year. So if you want to keep your old customs and have an ethnic enclave you have to do so in a way that respects the sensitivities of the wider culture and enriches it rather than creating an eye sore and a hot spot for crime and so on. Part of that is on the state which could improve things like its housing and labor policy but regardless of what the state does Muslims should try to integrate better.

Ok, fair enough, I am also not in favour of any form of censorship and IF you are not taking this out of context, I do agree with you andd we should be able to discuss anything in a society.

However, making the apology of violence and murder, especially the loathable current beheadings, does fall under hate speech and outside of free-speech, especially calls for violence.

The above deserves a MUCH harder crackdown than the current one - in fact I would be in favour of martial law to deal with that. I am against the death penalty but would be in favour of secret services picking people up in the middle of the night and these people only showing up again after 10 years or so.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

You don't have arguments left for your double standard.
It's all about control for you. You don't support freedom of speech. It's only a selective speech. The ones
that question that are thrown in prison for hate speech.

I am going to put you on ignore. Just like when a dog is barking outside I just close the window.

 

[TheWave111]

Yes that's why I said the state could do more when it comes to things like housing policy.

Its true that there seems to be a bit of a life-cycle to immigrant communities and the first generations have a rougher time of things and are also more troublesome. Italian immigrants brought organized crime for instance. But the situation in France seems uniquely bad.

It's bad in French because the economy in France is bad.
It's nothing new in history. It's always the immigrants that are blamed in economic hard times.
It's the trick of trying to take away the attention of the real problems and real theft.
Ethnic tensions created by the state to try to create division in the lower classes so that nobody looks up for the real crimes, corruption and theft of people who run the country.
Immigrants have zero influence in France yet they are blamed. It's crazy

 

[TheWave111]

I am going to put you on ignore. Just like when a dog is barking outside I just close the window.

I know you don't value me as a human but as an animal.
I'm not surprised by your words.

 

[Islam Imamate]

However, making the apology of violence and murder, especially the loathable current beheadings, does fall under hate speech and outside of free-speech, especially calls for violence.

The above deserves a MUCH harder crackdown than the current one - in fact I would be in favour of martial law to deal with that. I am against the death penalty but would be in favour of secret services picking people up in the middle of the night and these people only showing up again after 10 years or so.

Oh boy haha, definitely wouldn't support that...

 

[SanchoMF]

I'm referring to the recent measures Macron is trying to pass which cracks down on anti-Republican speech. Perhaps before that was allowed but it looks like Macron has a change of method in mind


When I say thought police I mean the government's increased willingness to regulate the speech and beliefs of Muslims and Islamic organizations. Assimilation is different, Muslims shouldn't compromise their faith but they should try to assimilate as much as possible short of compromising their faith. Just bringing over your North African or Pakistani customs and clinging to them for dear life and creating ghettos and stuff is wrong. France in particular makes it a little harder than most Western countries because they make a bigger deal out of certain things like the hijab, which is banned for civil servants and in public universities, but ultimately its up to the believer to make the tough choices necessary there.

In the US we have ethnic enclaves like Chinatown and Little Italy and people tend to like them and they become local tourist spots but I doubt the Muslim ghettos of Europe are attracting any local tourists for Ramadan the way Chinatown does during the Chinese New Year. So if you want to keep your old customs and have an ethnic enclave you have to do so in a way that respects the sensitivities of the wider culture and enriches it rather than creating an eye sore and a hot spot for crime and so on. Part of that is on the state which could improve things like its housing and labor policy but regardless of what the state does Muslims should try to integrate better.

In France it's fairly basic ; you're allowed to practice your belief-systems as much as you want but it's not to be a part of the public life. It's a very simple demand which only starts to get ugly when people deliberately start going against it. (Mass-prayers on the streets, insisting on different rules than the rest of the population OR that the rest of the population should adapt to rules more pleasing towards for example Islam) The case is not helped that the western countries have way too many people who 'champion' for any progressive ideas, without understanding the challenges that diversity brings (which it does).
Assimilation can't happen if isn't asked (which is the point above) and if the population that should assimilate grows too rapidly creating ethnic/religious enclaves where that particular population happens to be the vast majority. This brings a vicious circle of means that lessen the integration, due to services (public and private) created to cater the population and the enclaves move even further away from the mainstream.
Stigmatizing the discussion around the challenges has led the West to these problems, because unless problems are flagged and assessed, they won't go away.
Now France for example has to tackle with issues that could've been treated decades ago, only this time the climate has grown worse and the problems have grown bigger.

 

[MMA Time Soldier]

Secularism has never killed anyone.



Extremists teach that France should not be respected. They teach that women are not equal to men, that little girls should not have the same rights as little boys.

I tell you very clearly: not with us.



I have seen too many lies, I want to be clear: what we are doing in France is to fight terrorism which is done in the name of Islam, not Islam. It claimed the lives of over 300 of our fellow citizens!



I was made to say: "I support the cartoons humiliating the prophet". I am in favor of people being able to write, think and draw freely in my country. It's a right, it's our freedoms. I understand that it can be shocking, I respect that, but we have to talk about it.

Macron, what a phony

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Oh boy haha, definitely wouldn't support that...

Not saying it's the best solution but as years pass, the more I realise that we need to think outside the box for dealing with the salafist problem in France. It is not getting any better and I just flat out refuse the status quo.

Personally I have nothing against moderate muslims but it will be asked of them to side against the salafists. Otherwise, things are going to compound and while I do not see France electing the far-right and while I really don't see a risk for some kind of civil war in France, I do see it as a certainty that far-right militias are going to pop up and do themselves what they perceive as justice, which will only escalate violence from both sides.

 

[TheWave111]

In France it's fairly basic ; you're allowed to practice your belief-systems as much as you want but it's not to be a part of the public life. It's a very simple demand which only starts to get ugly when people deliberately start going against it. (Mass-prayers on the streets, insisting on different rules than the rest of the population OR that the rest of the population should adapt to rules more pleasing towards for example Islam) The case is not helped that the western countries have way too many people who 'champion' for any progressive ideas, without understanding the challenges that diversity brings (which it does).
Assimilation can't happen if isn't asked (which is the point above) and if the population that should assimilate grows too rapidly creating ethnic/religious enclaves where that particular population happens to be the vast majority. This brings a vicious circle of means that lessen the integration, due to services (public and private) created to cater the population and the enclaves move even further away from the mainstream.
Stigmatizing the discussion around the challenges has led the West to these problems, because unless problems are flagged and assessed, they won't go away.
Now France for example has to tackle with issues that could've been treated decades ago, only this time the climate has grown worse and the problems have grown bigger.

There is no such thing as not expressing your beliefs in public life. Nobody is neutral.
You are the one that is forcing which belief should be part of public life.
That's because most don't believe in freedom of expression but only in control and dictatorship.
You are not neutral when you are walking in public areas. Nobody is. It's propaganda sold to oppress ideas and beliefs.

 

[TuggSpeedman]

France is going to go Hard Right. Europeans are sick of their countries being stolen from them by Muslim migrants who refuse to assimilate and instead promote their own crazy beliefs.

The Left is the cancer of the Earth. They must be destroyed at all costs before the entire planet falls into chaos

 

[SanchoMF]

There is no such thing as not expressing your beliefs in public life. Nobody is neutral.
You are the one that is forcing which belief should be part of public life.
That's because most don't believe in freedom of expression but only in control and dictatorship.
You are not neutral when you are walking in public areas. Nobody is. It's propaganda sold to oppress ideas and beliefs.

Beliefs = religion in this case.
And most of us are not walking around manifesting our beliefs of flat earth, lizard people or even God.
A nation needs laws and France in particular has had massacres over religion between Christians hundreds of years ago ;
the laws of today are derived from the French Revolution and the establishment of the Republic.
The vast majority accepts these laws and if a person doesn't find the laws welcoming, they can contest them (and live with the consequences) or alternatively go to a place where the laws are closer to their beliefs.