*Machida vindicates TMA (Karate)*

[yookfarb]

How exactly does Machida vindicate TMA? He trains out of Black House(a facility that offers no classes or instructors in TMA), he has a blackbelt in BJJ, and he isn't even the best fighter in his division.

Pettis is another one that says his base in TKD.

TMA is just as relevant as the other disciplines in MMA.

What an absurd statement to make. One UFC champion out of 8 who have a supposed base in TMA.

 

[Jimmy Tuna**]

Didn't Chuck have a TKD base as well?

 

[kintana]

I dont think it was so much about TMA but it was about McDojos and TMAs were taught.

I did TKD and it was a complete McDojo I paid for belts I did more katas then I can remember I broke fake boards etc. I only sparred a few times per months and it was point fighting.

Later I did Kung Fu specially Wing Chun and Norther Style Kung Fu. We did sparring every week. WE did do forms and Katas but the instructor also did grappling. It was more beneficial then anything in TKD but still not realistic combat training.

If you look at how Machida practice karate with chokes, trips etc it was different style of training. If you look at kung fu in terms of Sanda or San shou it is more like kickboxing training.

The biggest turn off with TMAs weren't the martial arts but the way instructor who decided to award themselves Grand Master titles or say this my personal style and then have it be simply a way to pass the time.

My first TKD instructor was a schoolteacher at my school or started a TKD program. It was a after school club for parents who couldnt pick up their kids at 3pm. So it was more of a time filler then a martial arts program.

BJJ, Muay Thai etc were more combat oriented hence why in MMA they were the prevalent styles.

 

[hj]

What use is a martial art if only one or two of the practitioners are able to implement it effectively (or "correctly") enough to exploit it. That's not far from same sort of 'no true Scotsman' argument that people use to defend every major traditional martial art that's been tested and failed in MMA. "Oh <insert TMA here> is great, we just haven't seen the real best practitioners fight yet." Perhaps the relative infrequency of those exceptions speak more about the fighters themselves than they do whatever art they happen to call their base.

While Royce's UFC 1 win was a nice showcase for BJJ, what I think was the real testament to the techniques were how practical they were to learn, implement and see results from for all other fighters. Even if Machida were to have gone undefeated until retirement, I don't think Karate could be considered truly vindicated as a practical form of combat until you saw it become as ubiquitous in MMA as BJJ, Muay Thai, or wrestling has.

 

[DVN**]

This is a cool point in MMA evolution. When the Gracies' hit in 1993, TMA had become untested/watered down arts and that allowed BJJ to easily roll through them which in turn created MMA. Which proved itself to better a better style than BJJ alone. With the creation and popularity of MMA, this forced TMA practioners to look back to the true roots of their arts and find the techniques and training methods that made it functional before it became watered down. Now flash forward, you are seeing MMA fights with fighters with TMA bases starting to incorporate the once believed useless TMA techniques in MMA with surprising success. Karate being one.

Yes, kicking high, spinning kicks, back kicks, side kicks, unorthodox stances and angles.

Machida, cung le, pettis, stephen thompson are a few off the top of my head that started in tma and can still be seen using it effectively at a high level.

 

[sb413197]

The Karate that Machida does IS NOT "American TMA Karate" full of ritualistic nonsense - Machida's Karate is real, old school, hardcore, full contact Karate - the way it used to be before it ended up in strip malls with 8 year old blackbelts.

 

[KarateKickbox22]

The Karate that Machida does IS NOT "American TMA Karate" full of ritualistic nonsense - Machida's Karate is real, old school, hardcore, full contact Karate - the way it used to be before it ended up in strip malls with 8 year old blackbelts.

A guy that I train with thinks that Lyoto's karate is a joke. He says, "The knockouts Lyoto had been able to accomplish are because he learned everything from Steven Seagal."

Makes me laugh my ass off every time he says that.

 

[snoop dogg***]

Yeah and he uses his karate to take people down and lay on top of them for five rounds. Big difference.

like how MAchida uses his karate to run

 

[KarateKickbox22]

like how MAchida uses his karate to run

He is always looking for the knockout shot. If you like sloppy brawlers who throw tons of strikes per round watch Hendo. Lyoto uses his movement and angles to set up kill shots. That's why he fights the way he does. I don't expect you to be able to understand that though.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

Didn't Chuck have a TKD base as well?

nah kempo and some other type of karate think shidokan

said his over exaggerated over hands came from that

 

[Nicslagan]

The reason Muay Thai has been successful and proven has more to do with training methods and "aliveness"....there are so many variations of techniques within Muay Thai as well....so many variations of the teep, variations of round kick even....between different camps in Thailand.

In the end, MT is successful because it continually tests itself and adopts. It is akin to a swimming lessons where you actually swim in the baby pool, pool and then the ocean. Many other traditional striking arts went from posing outside the pool to swimming in the baby pool....but stopped there.

A traditional martial artist is taught to adapt too. Just because they have agreed upon forms that cover a certain amount of techniques doesn't mean that they aren't taught to adapt. At first adapting to another style is only covered a little because the student needs time to learn his own style and master all the techniques and basics. Once you can do the basics then you learn more techniques to adapt to other circumstances. The students are taught techniques in their art outside the ones in the forms or katas. The instructors each have their own techniques from the TMA that they teach in addition to the techniques within the "Federation or Association". I met tons of Master Instructors in TKD, HKD, Judo, and other arts in and around the Houston area. Lots of them hold seminars and training sessions at each other's schools. TMA aren't as limited as they seem. Most people base this opinion on what they see some black belt do or just the techniques they have seen from that art.

TMA are taught progressively similar to MT but most students will never see this. Most students quit in any martial art before they even get their black belt. Black belt is just the beginning in many TMA. A student in TMA is progressed at a slower, safer pace. They spar with safer rules and once they become proficient they can spar with less rules. TMA are more concerned and focused on the safety, longevity, and health of the student. A lot of TMA guys end up sparring Thai rules at their school, usually more like San Shou though. This depends greatly on the level of the student and what they want out of the art. A Master in TMA such as Kung Fu, TKD, and Karate is very good at sparring Thai or San Shou rules. A lot of them go train to Thai fight or transition into it and a lot don't.

A definite slower, safer progression is used in TMA but they do learn to "swim in the ocean". TMA don't stop their students at the "baby pool". The student stops themselves. Most students just want to be able to beat up and defend themselves from the average joe not be a professional fighter.

How long is the lifespan of a Muay Thai fighter who starts in Muay Thai?

How long is the lifespan of a TMA fighter who starts in TMA and stays there?

Who is usually going to have a healthier body and life in the long run?

 

[Scouseknight]

It's about the student not the art.

 

[Nicslagan]

Didn't Chuck have a TKD base as well?

Karate. Karate guys always punch really hard.

 

[Nicslagan]

GSP claims his footwork for entering takedowns come from his karate background, but his striking technique is almost completely boxing/muay thai.

The spinning side kick is from karate & TKD, but the rest of his kicks are thai kicks and his punches are boxing. I've never seen him throw a karate punch (tsuki or gyaku tsuki).

That spinning side kick is in Muay Thai as well. It is in 90% of striking arts and in all that include kicks. In advanced karate, TKD, and Kung Fu they teach the variations of each kick. So you could even say all his techniques are Kung Fu style...lol. Thai aren't the only ones that are taught the round house kick angled down to attack the thigh.

I've seen plenty of TKD guys throw jabs just like a boxer at a TKD/HKD school. I learned both the "Thai kick" and the jab in HKD. All straight punches are taught in TKD/HKD. Well, they teach all punches really including hooks. TKD/HKD guys know basic boxing. It's just not included in tournaments. I assume it's the same for karate. Hammer fists are shown in beginning karate/tkd/hkd.



lol I put up the wrong video but I have a vhs from the 80's showing all basic "boxing" punches in TKD. Hooks, uppercuts, etc.

 

[solarnoise]

Can we be honest here?

The kick Machida KO'd Munoz with is not drastically different from a Muy Thai roundhouse kick...

Both pivot on the feet, throw their arm back, and use their body's rotation to put torque on the kick.

The only difference is the karate one has a bend in the knee and then snaps it, which arguably reduces its power and is why Muy Thai doesn't do it that way, but may help snake it over the guy's defense.

I'm kind of sick of seeing "OH WOW, a karate style kick, how exotic!"

 

[solarnoise]

...what I DO like about Machida's style is his stance, and how he darts in and out and delivers counters, that part is way different from how the Muy Thai fighters do it.

 

[rac2]

Can we be honest here?

(...)I'm kind of sick of seeing "OH WOW, a karate style kick, how exotic!"

so... your point is we shouldn't call it a karate style kick because there are similar (yet slightly different) in other martial arts?

or even better, we shouldn't call it karate style because the same kick is practice in other arts?

if it's practiced in karate it is karate style. if there are other arts which practice it, good for them, but it won't stop being karate style because of that. if you say it's MT style, it is, but it is also karate style. nobody is saying no one else does it.

 

[THECYNDlCATE]

What use is a martial art if only one or two of the practitioners are able to implement it effectively (or "correctly") enough to exploit it. That's not far from same sort of 'no true Scotsman' argument that people use to defend every major traditional martial art that's been tested and failed in MMA. "Oh <insert TMA here> is great, we just haven't seen the real best practitioners fight yet." Perhaps the relative infrequency of those exceptions speak more about the fighters themselves than they do whatever art they happen to call their base.

While Royce's UFC 1 win was a nice showcase for BJJ, what I think was the real testament to the techniques were how practical they were to learn, implement and see results from for all other fighters. Even if Machida were to have gone undefeated until retirement, I don't think Karate could be considered truly vindicated as a practical form of combat until you saw it become as ubiquitous in MMA as BJJ, Muay Thai, or wrestling has.

This is a very good point.

 

[Nicslagan]

Anderson Silva is a 5th degree black belt in TKD

 

[Nicslagan]

What use is a martial art if only one or two of the practitioners are able to implement it effectively (or "correctly") enough to exploit it. That's not far from same sort of 'no true Scotsman' argument that people use to defend every major traditional martial art that's been tested and failed in MMA. "Oh <insert TMA here> is great, we just haven't seen the real best practitioners fight yet." Perhaps the relative infrequency of those exceptions speak more about the fighters themselves than they do whatever art they happen to call their base.

While Royce's UFC 1 win was a nice showcase for BJJ, what I think was the real testament to the techniques were how practical they were to learn, implement and see results from for all other fighters. Even if Machida were to have gone undefeated until retirement, I don't think Karate could be considered truly vindicated as a practical form of combat until you saw it become as ubiquitous in MMA as BJJ, Muay Thai, or wrestling has.

Check this thread out. You will realize you made a mistake.

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f61/30-successful-karate-fighters-mma-1040386/