*Machida vindicates TMA (Karate)*

[Nicslagan]

Have you ever done judo competitively?

Randori with a teammate gearing up for nationals?

No, but I know people who have. I was friends with a 2nd degree black belt in Judo. Her father taught Judo and Sambo. She was the Judo coach at Sam Houston. After college her brother fought professionally in small shows. Well, I know of 1 fight.

I am familiar with what you mean by randori. I got a fat dude and others in Tomoe Nage when doing randori in my hapkido class. I completed some other throws too. I only weighed 165 lbs at the time and everybody else weighed 200 lbs or above that I sparred with. If it weren't for a car wreck I would've started practicing Yudo with my Grandmaster's friend.

I can imagine that you would have a lot of injuries competing at Judo at a high level like that. The TKD guys that compete in the Olympics over train too.

 

[MilesAbove]

 

[Thrawn33]

No, but I know people who have. I was friends with a 2nd degree black belt in Judo. Her father taught Judo and Sambo. She was the Judo coach at Sam Houston. After college her brother fought professionally in small shows. Well, I know of 1 fight.

I am familiar with what you mean by randori. I got a fat dude and others in Tomoe Nage when doing randori in my hapkido class. I completed some other throws too. I only weighed 165 lbs at the time and everybody else weighed 200 lbs or above that I sparred with. If it weren't for a car wreck I would've started practicing Yudo with my Grandmaster's friend.

I can imagine that you would have a lot of injuries competing at Judo at a high level like that. The TKD guys that compete in the Olympics over train too.

It's not overtraining. It's just law of averages. You do something high impact for long enough, you will suffer injuries.

I can't explain the feeling of completing hard, you've either done it or you haven't. Some people even in judo don't, and there's no shame in that because its about what the player enjoys.

For the record I have nothing against Karate, TKD or Kung Fu as they are ment to be applied. Fact of life now, at least in the US, they are now considered TMA in the derrigatory sense: punch boards and air, pull strikes, get your black belt guaremteed in 3 years with 36 monthly payments of 500. There are exceptions, but these are rare.

Hence why I say judo is not a TMA.

In five years I have done kata three times.

 

[Fatal Rose]

Sanda: Cung Le

Kyukushin Karate: Katsunori Kikuno

TKD kicks: Cung Le, Anthony Pettis, daron Cruikshank. Reason why I add "kicks" is because they've modified thier striking style so much it hardly resembles TKD outside of the kicks. However Daron is the most pure TKDer in terms of stance, footwork, and overall striking style.

Shotokan karate: Machida, John Makdessi

Kenpo Karate: Stephan Thompson

 

[JonSnitchPhones]

Before the Wonderboy-Brown fight, Brown talked major crap about Thompson being from a TMA background, and he'd win because muay thai trumps other styles. Then he got beaten pretty badly on the feet, so had to resort to wrestling and gnp in order to win.

There are a lot of guys from TMA among the top strikers in MMA. It takes all kinds, but I think TMA backgrounds give fighters great potential to succeed on the feet because of the basic philosophy of hit and not be hit, as opposed muay thai which has guys standing in front of each other, in some danger. It's reliable because all the techniques translate to MMA, but defensively it's dangerous to have the attitude many muay thai guys do in MMA without big gloves, and that's where I think the TMA guys who end up translating can be among the highest level because defense is what separates the good from the great.

 

[Toxxus]

In TMA you are offered chances to spar with different rules if you want but not at a tournament. I sparred with MMA rules except for punching and kicking to the face in my Hapkido class more than a few times. This was after I got my black belt though. Most schools will let you do this. It is generally frowned upon because they don't want anybody to get injured. We would even bend the rules to allow friendly versions of groin attacks and fish hooks that we learned in the class. If the groin attack or fish attack was landed in a way that we could tell the attack was successful we would comply with it and continue or start over. The instructors know that most guys want to see what they are made of and can't hold back. You are better off not doing this too much because of it being frowned upon and the increased chance of injury.

The problem with this approach is so many guys are not used to getting punched in the face hard and trying to continue. It took me years of karate to make up for the long, early start in TKD with no punches to the face. I was so disgusted with my bad habits around hitting and getting hit in the face that I even took some boxing just to stop being such a flinchy bitch once some power was applied.

It's just better to train as close to how you fight as you can without getting injured too often. Judo/BJJ are great for this because you can go nearly full speed every class with only a modicum of injuries. By the time I was mid-blue belt in BJJ I felt more fight functional than I did with a black belt in TKD (from a good school no less!).

Hopefully the rise of MMA will continue to influence TMAs enough to at least address the need to spar with a full range of techniques (punch, kick, knee, elbow, clinch, takedown, ground game).

Generally guys who spar hard a lot have very good assessments of their real skills. A lot of guys who come up through TMAs are great, but some are quite delusional about their ability to actually fight since they never have to actually fight.

 

[THECYNDlCATE]

The problem with this approach is so many guys are not used to getting punched in the face hard and trying to continue. It took me years of karate to make up for the long, early start in TKD with no punches to the face. I was so disgusted with my bad habits around hitting and getting hit in the face that I even took some boxing just to stop being such a flinchy bitch once some power was applied.

It's just better to train as close to how you fight as you can without getting injured too often. Judo/BJJ are great for this because you can go nearly full speed every class with only a modicum of injuries. By the time I was mid-blue belt in BJJ I felt more fight functional than I did with a black belt in TKD (from a good school no less!).

Hopefully the rise of MMA will continue to influence TMAs enough to at least address the need to spar with a full range of techniques (punch, kick, knee, elbow, clinch, takedown, ground game).

Generally guys who spar hard a lot have very good assessments of their real skills. A lot of guys who come up through TMAs are great, but some are quite delusional about their ability to actually fight since they never have to actually fight.

I don't know man, I get more rib injuries from BJJ than I do anything else, lol. Right now, my left capsule is popped too. I hardly ever get injured from striking, except for the occasional cut from an elbow.

 

[eon001]

Mixed Martial arts. Anything goes if it's legal. Kinda frustrates me when I hear Rogan say how "useless" TKD. MMA is still evolving. It's all about how well the fighter utilizes the skill.

 

[Sano]

I think if I had to make the perfect combination of martial arts, it would be something like:

Boxing: Footwork, head movement and punches
Muay Thai: Low kicks, body kicks, clinch, elbows and knees
Kyokushin/Karate/TKD: High kicks, front kicks and every other tricky/spinning kicks
Judo: Throws, trips and armbars
Wrestling: Grappling control and takedowns
BJJ: Submissions

Maybe throw some Sumo and Sanda in there.

This is what I want to combine myself haha I love each and every dicipline.

 

[DhakaMMA]

All Japanese martial-arts are practical. They don't have monks or opera performers creating that stuff like in China.

 

[Nicslagan]

Before the Wonderboy-Brown fight, Brown talked major crap about Thompson being from a TMA background, and he'd win because muay thai trumps other styles. Then he got beaten pretty badly on the feet, so had to resort to wrestling and gnp in order to win.

There are a lot of guys from TMA among the top strikers in MMA. It takes all kinds, but I think TMA backgrounds give fighters great potential to succeed on the feet because of the basic philosophy of hit and not be hit, as opposed muay thai which has guys standing in front of each other, in some danger. It's reliable because all the techniques translate to MMA, but defensively it's dangerous to have the attitude many muay thai guys do in MMA without big gloves, and that's where I think the TMA guys who end up translating can be among the highest level because defense is what separates the good from the great.

Yeah, that is one of the down sides I've seen in Muay Thai practitioners. They trade kicks and strikes until someone gives up and generally practice less movement at least in their matches. This trading blows style is fun but most people end up having a shorter length of career than a running back in football. Practicing the point rules teaches you to not be touched. Muay Thai guys sometimes also block too much and because of this they suffer from injuries to their arms and legs. I was told by one of my instructors that the best Muay Thai guys start off in another safer art and then go to Muay Thai. He said they always have longer careers.

 

[Nicslagan]

It's not overtraining. It's just law of averages. You do something high impact for long enough, you will suffer injuries.

I can't explain the feeling of completing hard, you've either done it or you haven't. Some people even in judo don't, and there's no shame in that because its about what the player enjoys.

For the record I have nothing against Karate, TKD or Kung Fu as they are ment to be applied. Fact of life now, at least in the US, they are now considered TMA in the derrigatory sense: punch boards and air, pull strikes, get your black belt guaremteed in 3 years with 36 monthly payments of 500. There are exceptions, but these are rare.

Hence why I say judo is not a TMA.

In five years I have done kata three times.

Yeah, I didn't mean overtraining about Judo I meant it more about kicking too much in TKD. I agree with you that the higher level you compete at the greater risk of injury. It's something that has a chance to affect you later in life.

I competed very hard in basketball. I played in High School and would've played in small college but got very sick. I never competed really hard vs other schools in my class or went to too many tournaments in martial arts. I had a span of about a year where I did spar every day with little rules. It was more MMA style without punches to the head. It was a blast but that's where I got a couple injuries.

They strike boards because it proves that they know how to strike through the target by the way. That is beneficial. It is proof that you have a powerful effective strike in your arsenal. Punching through 10 bricks or even 10 boards proves you have gained power in your punches. Karate and TKD guys that practice this have very good 1 punch power.

Most TMA charge a lot less than MMA by the way but that all depends. I paid 75$ each month for Hapkido. After black belt I was given a key to the place to train whenever I wanted with other students. The TKD students paid the same. The Judo class I was going to attend charged $100 each month. I went to a combatives class that charged $150 each month and you could only train 3 times per week for 2 hours. I went to a JKD, BJJ, MMA school that charged 150$ each month and you could train 3-4 times per week for 2 hours.

The TMA are given a bad wrap and reputation because they only show each person who enters into the class room very basic stuff. They don't show anybody anything walking in off the street. They show you exercises and movements mainly, a little self defense but nowhere near sufficient. The student is following a tradition and must focus on the techniques for his belt or level. It is done in progression. You get taught the good techniques after black belt level. The majority of people aren't given a black belt. It is not given on pure fighting ability which is what most people think. It is given once you have completed and are proficient in the curriculum for all belts. You also have to pass a test of loyalty, demonstrate good social skills, and prove that you can handle dynamic social situations as well. You have to prove that you are a problem solver and a leader. Each belt has a social test you must pass. Many corporations test people the same way. Fraternities haze the new pledges. Once you get past all that you reap the benefits. Most people never get their black belt and the majority quit by green belt because they don't know how to deal with the social tests they are given. A lot of people get treated like complete crap so that they will quit because the instructors feel that they are bad examples of a citizen or that the art is not for them because they don't understand the philosophy. All of this leads to confusion about TMA.

Most Judo schools are TMA but I'm sure there are some that aren't. Judo is known worldwide as a traditional martial art regardless of what you say.

You would be better skilled and have less injuries if you had done kata more than you did. That is a fact. This doesn't take away but supplements your hard sparring sessions.

 

[Nicslagan]

Mixed Martial arts. Anything goes if it's legal. Kinda frustrates me when I hear Rogan say how "useless" TKD. MMA is still evolving. It's all about how well the fighter utilizes the skill.

You did see the video where Rogan shows GSP how to do a spinning back kick and get more power. GSP used a spinning side kick. He is a 2nd degree black belt in TKD. He learned that from his "useless" TKD class. He was exaggerating when he said it was useless and meant more so for ground fighting. He's also promoting MMA, BJJ, and the UFC. They were pretty bad about bad mouthing TMA at the beginning. For a while BJJ was the ultimate martial art. Then it was wrestling. Then Pete Sell defended Mark Coleman's takedowns and kicked him in the head. Then Maurice Smith a kick boxer learned the guard from TK, a 5th degree black belt in Judo, not BJJ. He defended himself from ground and pound and won the fight via striking. Fans and spectators with no experience in martial arts learned about martial arts through watching UFC. This bias especially in the beginning of the UFC confused fans about martial arts. It was almost to the point of the best martial art being whoever was champ at the time. Watching and practicing are 2 different things.

 

[Street Level]

IMO it is good to have basis on a TMA before moving to MMA.

but you cannot discount any of them.

For now, most people who are successful in MMA came from a TMA.

But there are great fighters who are now climbing up to the top that begun their training straight into MMA. And I believe it is a matter of time when most will make the switch.

But yeah, I love the "purist" feeling

WAR DRAGON!!!

OSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

I was really excited to see Randy and Machida fight. It was like a modern day UFC1. I even think I made a thread on the subject that everyone bagged on me for it.

 

[Nicslagan]

I think if I had to make the perfect combination of martial arts, it would be something like:

Boxing: Footwork, head movement and punches
Muay Thai: Low kicks, body kicks, clinch, elbows and knees
Kyokushin/Karate/TKD: High kicks, front kicks and every other tricky/spinning kicks
Judo: Throws, trips and armbars
Wrestling: Grappling control and takedowns
BJJ: Submissions

Maybe throw some Sumo and Sanda in there.

This is what I want to combine myself haha I love each and every dicipline.

That would definitely work. Just as a motorcycle stunt man starts off easy and jumps into the pit of foam before he actually makes the true stunt I would suggest starting off with the easier traditional rules. Then move to Muay Thai because you only have to slightly change your kicks and add a few things. I think wrestling might be the safest for grappling to start with but Judo done conservatively could be a good start.

 

[Nicslagan]

The problem with this approach is so many guys are not used to getting punched in the face hard and trying to continue. It took me years of karate to make up for the long, early start in TKD with no punches to the face. I was so disgusted with my bad habits around hitting and getting hit in the face that I even took some boxing just to stop being such a flinchy bitch once some power was applied.

yes, depending on your class and your level in a TMA there can be holes in your game. TKD progresses into dealing with almost everything in striking and from learning your spacing and movement you should have been better at defending punches than before. You might not have realized it. TKD teaches moving your feet to avoid punches and raising your hands. They don't do too much bobbing and weaving. Although, you don't spar with head punches in tournaments you should have done some sparring in class with punches to the face allowed. Unfortunately, a student of TKD has to wait until 2nd and 3rd degree to be exposed to the more vital techniques in self defense. I would definitely do as you said you did and learn some boxing or at least practice head movement drills especially since most people don't want to wait as long as you have to. This also depends on whether your TKD instructor teaches just sport TKD or not.

It's just better to train as close to how you fight as you can without getting injured too often. Judo/BJJ are great for this because you can go nearly full speed every class with only a modicum of injuries. By the time I was mid-blue belt in BJJ I felt more fight functional than I did with a black belt in TKD (from a good school no less!).

I definitely believe you eventually need to spar or train close to how you fight especially if you are going to or want to become a professional or even amateur full contact fighter. You really have to take that risk of injury if that's your purpose. I believe that you should start with the easier rules though so you learn each specific area of fighting. TKD for mainly kicks or Karate, then wrestling, then Judo/BJJ for grappling, then Boxing, and then Muay Thai. Whatever order you want. Starting with the safer rules and ending with the harsher ones is great because by then you will even have a less of a chance to get injured in the harsher rule sets due to your increased coordination and healthy, strong, durable, body. With a grappling class you will always feel more functional than a class that focuses on kicks. Kicks take longer to be good enough to use in a real fight than say a choke or take down. This is due to the fact that they are the larger more powerful muscles on your body and it takes longer to stretch them out and get them coordinated. Your hands obviously are more dynamic and coordinated naturally. The TKD rules of tournaments are safer than the BJJ rules. Some grappling tournaments allow leg locks and all you need is one Paul Harris and you're out due to a knee injury. Next thing you know you are on the couch depressed eating potato chips on pain killers waiting to have surgery on your knee. You are only hoping that you recover well. Most of us aren't rich, can't afford the time off from work, and might not even have insurance.

Hopefully the rise of MMA will continue to influence TMAs enough to at least address the need to spar with a full range of techniques (punch, kick, knee, elbow, clinch, takedown, ground game).

Most TMA will stay the same and have the same slow progression in level of sparring that they do now. They want to spar with safe techniques and just practice the ones that have a higher chance of injury without actual contact. TMA still practice techniques like throat strikes and groin grab and pulls that should never be done full contact. They will use the elbows and illegal strikes in a self defense situation if it occurs. .

Generally guys who spar hard a lot have very good assessments of their real skills. A lot of guys who come up through TMAs are great, but some are quite delusional about their ability to actually fight since they never have to actually fight.

Their focus is good self defense as far as martial technique goes along with safety and keeping the body healthy not awesome fighting skills or impenetrable self defense at the expense of inevitable injuries. Most of the time the different ranges of fighting will be kept separate as they are now. Striking arts mainly focusing on striking and grappling mainly focusing on grappling just as Math and Science are taught separate at first and then put together later in Physics. It has been shown that if you want to become a professional fighter after doing a TMA then you can and will be good. You obviously need to train the areas you've missed.

I'm in blue above.

 

[Sano]

That would definitely work. Just as a motorcycle stunt man starts off easy and jumps into the pit of foam before he actually makes the true stunt I would suggest starting off with the easier traditional rules. Then move to Muay Thai because you only have to slightly change your kicks and add a few things. I think wrestling might be the safest for grappling to start with but Judo done conservatively could be a good start.

Well, I did Shotokan Karate for four years as a kid. I trained Muay Thai for a 1

 

[Deleted member 429137]

I still remember those days when people used to make jokes about traditional martial arts, or how useless they were in real fights. In the same line, BJJ, muay thai, boxing and wrestling were said to be the way to become a successful mixed martial artist.

Time has shown those concepts were wrong. There are a lot of relevant examples on the MMA to prove it:

Judo: Akiyama, Parysian, DHK, Lombard, etc.
Kung Fu: Cung Le

and

Karate: Lyoto Machida.

Machida is the best example as karate might be one of the most criticized TMA. From his stance, his footwork, his punches and his kicks, "The Dragon" shows how effective it could be if learned and applied correctly.

His KO kick against Mu

 

[Nicslagan]

Well, I did Shotokan Karate for four years as a kid. I trained Muay Thai for a 1

 

[snoop dogg***]

because only karate uses headkicks