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*Machida vindicates TMA (Karate)*

I don't think those guys vindicate TMA at all.

Guys like Machida and Pettis train in everything. And they are extremely quick and great athletes to boot.
A guy like Royce Gracie, on the other hand, is not a great athlete but beats these guys in a pure style vs style matchup most of the time, if karate or TKD are their styles. But they just happen to be ground wizards too...

It vindicates their stand up. Because they both have extensive backgrounds in TMA their stand up is more dynamic and precise. Their strikes are powerful, accurate, fast, and efficient. All the guys with TMA striking background are more evasive and have better spacing.

They are good on the ground because they have to do that too. TMA make it easier to learn new stuff because they increase your coordination a ton.
 
It vindicates their stand up. Because they both have extensive backgrounds in TMA their stand up is more dynamic and precise. Their strikes are powerful, accurate, fast, and efficient. All the guys with TMA striking background are more evasive and have better spacing.

They are good on the ground because they have to do that too. TMA make it easier to learn new stuff because they increase your coordination a ton.

Any physical training will increase coordination, be it soccer or gymnastics, or what have you. Even stage fighting will increase coordination, but it doesn't make it any better for combat.
 
Any physical training will increase coordination, be it soccer or gymnastics, or what have you. Even stage fighting will increase coordination, but it doesn't make it any better for combat.

They are designed to make you coordinated in many martial arts movements. Sure any physical training increases coordination but not to the same degree that forms do for martial arts training.

Weightlifting might increase your coordination very little while forms force you to move the body in many different ways. This is why forms are the most beneficial way to increase coordination especially for martial arts. They were invented for a purpose and have been used for centuries because of this. The body hasn't changed for centuries either. Dancers and martial artists are the most coordinated athletes around.

I used to think the same thing as you until I became extremely coordinated from doing forms. It made me tons better at combat. It made Machida and many others better for combat as well.
 
They are designed to make you coordinated in many martial arts movements. Sure any physical training increases coordination but not to the same degree that forms do for martial arts training.

Weightlifting might increase your coordination very little while forms force you to move the body in many different ways. This is why forms are the most beneficial way to increase coordination especially for martial arts. They were invented for a purpose and have been used for centuries because of this. The body hasn't changed for centuries either. Dancers and martial artists are the most coordinated athletes around.

I used to think the same thing as you until I became extremely coordinated from doing forms. It made me tons better at combat. It made Machida and many others better for combat as well.

I won't say they are useless, but the best way to get better at doing something is to do it. Much of the movements in the forms I've seen are not applicable to fighting, or aren't realistic techniques you would use in a fight.

Weight lifting is not what I was talking about. Weight lifting is just resistance training, really.

You brought up dancing. Thanks for making my point. Dancing can increase coordination, especially spectacle type dancing, yet it is even further removed from being applicable to a fight from even katas. I wonder how many professional fighters and champions without a background in TMA have come to use forms as a primary tool in their training. I doubt many do, but if it was far and away more effective than normal training measures, that shouldn't be the case.
 
Yeah it's really about how you train. To be successful at MMA you need full-contact sparring and experience. A lot of techniques from Traditional Martial Arts work but of course you can't limit yourself to a style that only focuses on one range of combat.

This

How you train is as important as the style you practice, if not more.
 
I won't say they are useless, but the best way to get better at doing something is to do it. Much of the movements in the forms I've seen are not applicable to fighting, or aren't realistic techniques you would use in a fight.

I understand why you feel this way and I can just say that I can tell you are not a black belt in a TMA and have little knowledge about them. I was once the same way. This is not meant in disrespect at all and I thank you for the opportunity to inform you about something that is commonly misunderstood.
Let's take a move practiced in the first form of TKD. Front stance, punch with one arm, and elbow back with other. You are practicing three things useful in a self defense situation at the same time which would actually be used separately. By punching you make your punch stronger, faster, learn how to correctly breath while doing it, create muscle memory (example-practicing holding the fist tightly closed helps avoid injury because it becomes automatic-less chance of breaking your hand), etc. Almost the same thing with the elbow backwards. The stance can be used for balance against take downs, learning how to sit down on your punch -creates power, and provides stability in the knee joint and muscles supporting the joint which reduces chance of injury from practicing kicks repeatedly etc.

At a higher level a punch with a lower version of the front stance is taught as a lunging punch to the stomach or groin. Chuck Lidell and others have used this technique in fights in MMA matches. I personally love this technique as a great body shot most people don't expect in friendly matches. I really love this technique in a street situation because punching someone hard in the groin greatly increases the chances of defending yourself.Weight lifting is not what I was talking about. Weight lifting is just resistance training, really.

You brought up dancing. Thanks for making my point. Dancing can increase coordination, especially spectacle type dancing, yet it is even further removed from being applicable to a fight from even katas.

I agree that katas are more useful than dancing (Bruce Lee writes about dancing as a great supplement to MA training) and would agree with you about gymnastics. Jackie Chan practices TMA and lots of TMA teach falling and techniques seen in gymnastics. I learned how to jump over 7 bent over people roll and keep running. From practicing falling techniques in Hapkido I don't get hurt when I fall down even if I am flipped when I play basketball.
GSP practices gymnastics now and he is a professional fighter. TMA have always included this in the class. The specialists in this field are among the best in the world.

I wonder how many professional fighters and champions without a background in TMA have come to use forms as a primary tool in their training. I doubt many do, but if it was far and away more effective than normal training measures, that shouldn't be the case.

I wouldn't suggest forms as a primary tool in training for a Professional Fighter but would suggest it as a supplemental tool. They might not do it but what would hurt practicing form 30 mins each day. They would get better at pivoting and get all of the other benefits with almost 0 chance of injury.

http://www.lotusmartialarts.com/articles_importanceofkata.htm
 
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Machida vindicated nothing. Machida vs Munoz was a horrific first round which would have been 5 horrific rounds, as 66% of Machida fights are recently, if Munoz hadn't got KOd through a half-blocked kick.

That was no Cro-Cop left kick.
 
mawashi_geri.gif


The guy being kicked is way off the mark with his own kick. Is he blind?
 
I don't think those guys vindicate TMA at all.

Guys like Machida and Pettis train in everything. And they are extremely quick and great athletes to boot.
A guy like Royce Gracie, on the other hand, is not a great athlete but beats these guys in a pure style vs style matchup most of the time, if karate or TKD are their styles. But they just happen to be ground wizards too...

Royce Gracie loses almost 100% of the time vs either of these guys in an MMA match and to most of the people today. He never learned how to strike well. No one says that you don't need to learn both.

Both striking and grappling are obviously important. Some TMA Masters practice both a grappling style and a striking style. Others practice just grappling or just striking. If you ask a TMA Master that teaches striking arts only if he can teach you grappling he will usually suggest one of his friends that teaches a traditional grappling art.

Both the traditional striking arts and traditional grappling arts teach techniques to counter the other in lots of situations just not all. Traditional striking arts teach anti-grappling techniques, take down defense, etc. but mainly where strikes are involved in the defense. Same said for traditional grappling arts. They teach some defense against striking.

Neither teaches it all because they focus on the style they are teaching.
 
Machida vindicated nothing. Machida vs Munoz was a horrific first round which would have been 5 horrific rounds, as 66% of Machida fights are recently, if Munoz hadn't got KOd through a half-blocked kick.

That was no Cro-Cop left kick.

Lol...Machida knocked Mark Munoz out with a technique he practiced almost every day in the Traditional Martial Art of Karate. You do know that Mark Munoz is a professional fighter and that because of the evasiveness learned by Machida through Karate Mark Munoz landed 0 strikes. Because of this evasiveness he learned he could've probably fought 3 professional fighters that night and still come out uninjured.

Now, Machida's kick is less impressive than Cro cop's but Machida's evasiveness and spacing makes Cro Cop look like a chump. Cro cop always gets hit even by pure wrestlers.

I love them both but Karate is more than vindicated as a legit martial art to learn on your way to become a professional fighter.
 
P.S. Wing Chung is the superior TMA striking style, but you'll never see real Wing Chun cause only 6 masters in the world know real Wing Chung. How to tell which is which?

-If a Wing Chung Fighter loses = NOT Real Wing Chung
-If a Wing Chung Fighter wins, no matter how staged or ridiculously bad the opponent is = REAL Wing Chung

Dana needs to sigh more real Wing Chung fighters if he wants PPV numbers to go up. You'll definitely see more knock outs.

Wing Chun is legit but just as any TMA takes a longer time to learn because of the plethora of techniques. I doubt you know what all the techniques in Wing Chun are. You actually see them in every fight in the UFC.

Tito used a technique taught in Wing Chun and other TMA. Thai clinch is taught in Wing Chun along with various clinches for knees, elbows, and dirty fighting.

Here is a trap and punch taught in Wing Chun by Tito Ortiz. Only he knows where he learned.

Trap and punch at 5:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9muhf_MdHM
 
Machida shows that when karate is trained with the intention of full contact competition, rather than point fighting tournaments, it is a very effective martial art for striking.

All of these comments about cross training seem like sour grapes or something. No one wins fights with just BJJ but that doesn't mean BJJ isn't a valid art. The same with boxing and MT. All of those arts get cross trained. They're still valid arts individually.
 
Great pics. Gonna save the videos for later.

Thanks. Good post. Wish more guys would share stuff like this instead of just giving their opinions with nothing to back it up.

Don't waste your wishes:icon_lol:!
 
TMA like Karate, TKD, Judo etc are still very very good for MMA.

They're a great component of an MMA fighter, but they are nearly useless by themselves.

Kind of stumbled onto this in the mid 1990s. I was a black belt in TKD and got up to a brown belt in karate & judo. Then the UFC happened and I got into Relson Gracie's class in Honolulu.

Six months and one blue belt later in BJJ I felt like most of my TMA time had been largely wasted. Just sparring with TKD and Karate friends I felt like I got a chance to personally validate the Gracie Hype Machine videos. I could beat any of those guys with ease because they had no ground game. MT guys were much harder as they deal with clinches and hit like mack trucks. Wrestlers were very competitive unless you caught them early in the striking and tended to be stronger than !#@$.

Modern MMA fighters lack the specialization of TMA black belts, but they are so functional in a full contact, almost anything goes fight that they would handily mop the floor with most TMA guys.

Tangental note - The UFC is probably the best thing that has happened for TMAs in the last couple of hundred years. So much b.s. and legend had worked into the TMAs over the years and there was nobody to call them on it.

Watching your guys get beaten over and over and over in full contact fighting is an amazing reality check. Next thing I knew everyone was starting to cross-train a little or explain how their art would deal with takedown attempts and other things.

If nothing else the modern evolution of martial arts owes itself to the Gracies in a very large way. They've become somewhat irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, but they were able to get it into the US and draw enough attention that it eventually lead to the UFC we know today.

Without the UFC the American version of the TMAs would have continued to degenerate into fantasy land. Yes, Shaolin kung fu class with no sparring ever, I'm talking to you.
 
I think people are starting to finally get that it's not about being great at only one art, it's about putting it all together.


Much like how boxing, MT, BJJ, Wrestling, etc. won't really work by themselves, TMA like TKD won't work by themselves either.

But as we're starting to see with guys like Pettis, Machida, Kikuno, Nakahara, Cung Le, etc. who do the TMA stuff alongwith everything else, it works.



People need to realize we're kinda past the style vs style stage in MMA. Now it's guys playing the fights to their advantages.
 
Lol...Machida knocked Mark Munoz out with a technique he practiced almost every day in the Traditional Martial Art of Karate. You do know that Mark Munoz is a professional fighter and that because of the evasiveness learned by Machida through Karate Mark Munoz landed 0 strikes. Because of this evasiveness he learned he could've probably fought 3 professional fighters that night and still come out uninjured.

Machida also landed 5 FUCKING strikes over 3 minutes which is beyond horrific. And if Machida had fought 3 fights more fights that night he would have lost 2 split decisions. As his recent record shows.
 
Machida also landed 5 FUCKING strikes over 3 minutes which is beyond horrific. And if Machida had fought 3 fights more fights that night he would have lost 2 split decisions. As his recent record shows.

u dont have any simpathy for machida do u xd
 
Machida also landed 5 FUCKING strikes over 3 minutes which is beyond horrific. And if Machida had fought 3 fights more fights that night he would have lost 2 split decisions. As his recent record shows.

Easy, Mongo, the nurse is on her way.
 
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