Lorenzo destroying FPWs (Fighter Pay Warriors)

[FrodoFraggins]

Do you think they generate the same revenue???
Let's be a little less ridiculous here.
Also, the ufc has hundred's of fighters under contract.
The only thing wrong they are doing is with the reebok shit.

that and giving the fighters less than 20% of total revenue and controlling their likeness forever and badmouthing their athletes publicly and plenty of other stuff.

 

[FrankieNYC]

I googled 15% report and there was nothing on the ufc...

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2015/10/...odys-and-standard-poors-tell-us-about-the-ufc

With an estimated $1.839 billion in revenue generated from 2005-2011, $250 million in fighter wages would represent 13.6% of all revenue. If the amount paid out to the fighters was $300 million than the fighters' share of revenue would rise to 16.3%.

This article is quoted on here almost daily & the $15% is in-between the 13.6 & 16.3% the article reports.

 

[Toxxus]

I am all for fighter pay increases but I disagree with this. Why should the fighter who is working hard to promote the event and sell it have to give money because the UFC doesn't want to give them more? The UFC and Reebok should be making up the difference and not the top fighters.

I think we'll agree that the Reebok deal was a greedy cash grab by the UFC and a shit deal for almost all of the fighters.

However, if you wanted to change my earlier example up by the UFC adding the extra 100k to the pile instead of taking 100k (less than 2%) off the top earner so that the mid-tier and lower-tier guys make enough money to train full time and come into the octagon with the best skills possible to entertain us then that would be fine too.

I'm a bottom line kind of guy and as long as they get a little more money into the bottom tier guys so that we stop having guys competing on international televised events that still have a day job then I'll be happy. I just want the pro fighters to be paid sufficiently to be full time professionals.

 

[TheBulletwithWings]

MLB, NFL, NBA ... They all have substantial costs including owning freaking stadiums , TV networks and minor league teams and parks. Yet they manage to fairly pay their athletes.

The Fertitas aren't owning anyone but the fighters. But until the fighters stand up and unionize I can't be bothered anymore.

Bigger fanbase = bigger pay. That's just common sense

 

[TheHermit]

oh, of course, capitalists never lie. their businesses are always on the edge of collapse - especially if you ask them to pay their employees a bit more..

 

[Thepaintbucket]

I think we'll agree that the Reebok deal was a greedy cash grab by the UFC and a shit deal for almost all of the fighters.

However, if you wanted to change my earlier example up by the UFC adding the extra 100k to the pile instead of taking 100k (less than 2%) off the top earner so that the mid-tier and lower-tier guys make enough money to train full time and come into the octagon with the best skills possible to entertain us then that would be fine too.

I'm a bottom line kind of guy and as long as they get a little more money into the bottom tier guys so that we stop having guys competing on international televised events that still have a day job then I'll be happy. I just want the pro fighters to be paid sufficiently to be full time professionals.

For sure, I feel ya. It's unfortunate the bottom guys and to some extent a lot of veterans aren't being paid enough for all they have done. It's just hard to justify where it needs to come from.

Good post nonetheless.

 

[FrankieNYC]

For sure, I feel ya. It's unfortunate the bottom guys and to some extent a lot of veterans aren't being paid enough for all they have done. It's just hard to justify where it needs to come from.

Good post nonetheless.

Lower pre-prelim guys I understand
They win & they move up the ladder & make more.
They lose they are out.
UFC does not need the bottom 300.

The middling guys like Tom Lawler (ex) deserve more.
They are needed & add to the cards/brands, but are not top tier enough to make hundreds of grand per year

 

[Davemeddlehed]

yes you can.

"As an independent contractor, the terms and conditions of the work you perform are set out in a contract between you and the employer. Even though you are not considered an “employee” under federal labor law, you may still join a union."

"One thriving example of an independent contractor unit is the Guild Freelancers, an active group of independent writers and journalists who have organized as a part of the larger Pacific Media Workers Guild, a CWA local."

Things you give up as an independent contractor:

• EARNINGS – Independent contractors are responsible for both halves of social security and medicare tax. This can cost an individual approximately 7% of their earnings.
• WORKING CONDITIONS – Independent contractors are often not compensated at increased rates for overtime worked. Furthermore, independent contractors are often not reimbursed for work related expenditures.
• SECURITY – Independent contractors are not eligible for unemployment benefits or workers’ compensation benefits should they get hurt on the job.
• BENEFITS – Employees generally receive some form of health and retirement benefits.
• UNION – Independent contractors are ineligible to be represented by a union.

They technically could form one, but could not be represented by a union, or be part of any kind of collective bargaining agreements.

 

[rjmbrd]

Ronda Rousey, Yoel Romero, Henry Cejudo, Sara McMann, Ronda Rousey, Daniel Cormier, Hector Lombard, Fredy Serrano, Dan Kelly, Bilyal Makhov, etc. all competed in the Olympics.

Is this the geriatric Olympians division? This isn't 2008. Cejudo didn't even make the team in 2012 and Cormier didn't wrestle a single match, he washed out. Lombard was an Olympian 16 years ago.

Read that back - you have a 16-years-ago Olympian that can be successful at the highest level of MMA.

Yoel was an Olympian in 2004, 12 years ago.

Other professional sports do not have guys competing on their second or third athletic careers. It just is not possible because the competition is far too high in other professional sports.

Yes, it is accurate for me to say that the UFC has signed a number of Olympic athletes.

If you add the notation that they are a decade or more outside of their Olympic careers, sure.

The fact that the UFC hasn't signed the number/percentage of Olympic-level athletes that you think they should is neither here nor there. The greatest MMA fighter in the world, Jon Jones, didn't need Olympic credentials to make light-work of Daniel Cormier, by the way.

Jon Jones is one of the few truly elite athletes that entered MMA. When you get someone of his caliber, we don't call him the standard, like we do in all other professional sports.

We literally call him the greatest of all time.

That is how bad the risk -vs- reward is in MMA. It only takes one truly elite player to dominant in a way we've never previously seen.

 

[Kim Jong Un]

The elites will always use their might to oppress the poor working class. Thankfully we have great men like Conor fighting this tyranny.

 

[Lethal_Striker]

A lot of people arguing the same stuff they've been arguing for the last decade or so. You're spending all of your free time arguing to make people paid 3x at a minimum what you make even more money.

 

[blazerkor]

Uh, the split comes from the gross revenue - i.e. before expenses. The athletes are part of the expenses. The owners have to pay for all those other expenses - stadium, practice fields, coaches, staff, travel - out of their split.
The split for athletes pay is lower than the number given though. That split includes the pension payments, 401k and other such benefits.

Wow, then they are way, way off on a revenue split.

 

[Coolidge]

Is this the geriatric Olympians division? This isn't 2008. Cejudo didn't even make the team in 2012 and Cormier didn't wrestle a single match, he washed out. Lombard was an Olympian 16 years ago.

Read that back - you have a 16-years-ago Olympian that can be successful at the highest level of MMA.

Yoel was an Olympian in 2004, 12 years ago.

Other professional sports do not have guys competing on their second or third athletic careers. It just is not possible because the competition is far too high in other professional sports.

All of the fighters I named competed in the Olympics. The fact that they don't meet your standards is a separate issue. There isn't any High School or College MMA. There isn't any MMA in the Olympics, either. So there is no direct correlation between an Olympic career and an MMA career. If a legitimate professional wrestling league existed and they were only managing to sign 'x' amount of Olympic wrestlers, then that would be a problem. The UFC, however, is not a professional wrestling league.

What's your point exactly? Boxing had a man that was dominant in the 1960s and 70s still winning championships well into the 90s. They had a 40-50 year old man beating the likes of Antonio Tarver, Kelly Pavlik, Jean Pascal, Tavoris Cloud, and Winky Wright, all of whom were significantly younger and in their prime. Michael Jordan in his 40s was still successful at the highest level of the NBA. He didn't win anything, of course, due to his team being utter crap, but he was still an All-Star and averaged enough points to put him on par with some current top-tier NBA players. If an athlete shouldn't be able be able to compete on their second or third athletic careers, then the same logic should apply within the same sport after they've aged significantly.

If you add the notation that they are a decade or more outside of their Olympic careers, sure.

That would be woefully inaccurate. The majority are actually under the 10 year mark. Dan Kelly competed in 2012 (signed 2 years after), Rousey in 2008 (signed 4 years after), Cejudo in 2008 (signed 6 years after), Serrano in 2008 (signed 6 years after), and Bilyal Makhov in 2012 (signed 3 years after). Considering the Summer Olympics only occurs every four years, I think it's fairly common and understandable that you would be a decade or more outside of your Olympics career.

Jon Jones is one of the few truly elite athletes that entered MMA. When you get someone of his caliber, we don't call him the standard, like we do in all other professional sports.

We literally call him the greatest of all time.

He's considered the greatest of all time because he has the record to prove it. Every sport has that athlete who seems to be in a league of his own and can do what virtually no one else can. Jon Jones is one of many elite athletes that have entered MMA. You only consider him to be an 'elite athlete' because you're a physique fetishist. You're certainly not saying it because Jon has the credentials outside of MMA to back it up. Alexander Gutsafsson has neither the credentials nor the body of a so called 'A-level athlete', but yet still beat Jon Jones to a pulp.

Wonderboy Thompson is an elite athlete. Cain Velasquez is an elite athlete. Fabricio Werdum is an elite athlete, specifically a world class BJJ competitor. Alistair Overeem is an elite athlete with world class kickboxing credentials. Khabib Nurmagomedov is an elite athlete. RDA is an elite athlete. Jose Aldo is an elite athlete. Frankie Edgar is an elite athlete. Dominick Cruz is an elite athlete. Mighty Mouse Johnson is an elite athlete. Etc. There are a number of 'elite athletes' in MMA. Quite a few of them defy your stereotypical, Football-centric view of what they're supposed to look like, which is why you overlook them.

That is how bad the risk -vs- reward is in MMA. It only takes one truly elite player to dominant in a way we've never previously seen.

That's a blatant lie. Anderson Silva, GSP, and Fedor were all dominant in their own right, perhaps even more so. Wanderlei Silva and Chuck Liddell were as well.

 

[straight6]

Bigger fanbase = bigger pay. That's just common sense

i think the point was not about bigger pay in terms of absolute numbers. NFL, NBA, MLB, etc all pay out 50% of the revenue. Boxing stars get the lionshare, NOT the promoter. Its about the revenue share and pay out ratio, not about which has bigger fanbase.

 

[Emang8]

I'm pretty sure most of the informed fans are aware of this, but here is Lorenzo himself spilling the beans on what the UFC is actually making. According to him 2015 was a record year for the UFC. He said the company generated $600m in revenue in 2015. Lorenzo then goes on to point out that the UFC has to pay for promoting and staging all of their shows. It would be reasonable to assume that about half of all revenue goes to pay for business expenses. That leaves about $300m, or maybe less considering I don't know what the UFC's tax situation is like. If one were being reasonable it would be safe to assume the UFC in their best year made about $250m in pure profit. So when you add that to the fact they pay about $100m in fighter salaries and bonuses every year, it would be fucking mental to claim they aren't paying fighters fairly. So I Hope the FPWs chill out already.

OP says "it would be reasonable" several times while making assumptions based on no evidence what so ever. With the reports of how much fighters are being paid I will continue to believe fighters are being underpaid until I see some documentation similar to a 10-K report from ZUFFA detailing revenues, expenses and etc. This will never happen though because ZUFFA is not a publicly traded company and will never offer such information. Bottom line OP don't try to make an argument based on your own wild assumptions.

 

[Rational Poster]

OP says "it would be reasonable" several times while making assumptions based on no evidence what so ever. With the reports of how much fighters are being paid I will continue to believe fighters are being underpaid until I see some documentation similar to a 10-K report from ZUFFA detailing revenues, expenses and etc. This will never happen though because ZUFFA is not a publicly traded company and will never offer such information. Bottom line OP don't try to make an argument based on your own wild assumptions.

So it's ok for you to assume that Zuffa isn't paying fairly according to their available revenue but it's not ok to assume the opposite?

 

[smart.feller]

Yeah, no. It's simple math. Look at what management makes. Then look at what the fighters make. Then understand this: no fighters = no events = no fans = no money. Then shut the fuck up.

Not math. But using the same model of comparison it could be said No promoters = no events = no fights = no fighters = no money.

Organizations need fighters and fighters need organizations. WSOF still has $500/$500 payouts.

Comparing the UFC to other sports is not an accurate comparison. An NFL TV deal is worth more annually (1.93 billion USD in 2014) than the UFC is bringing in in revenue. Comparing the UFC to other MMA organizations is a more fair comparison, and the UFC dwarfs the other organizations in fighter compensation. The lowest fighter pay I could find for the UFC was from 2007, and that was a 3,000/3,000 deal...or 6x higher than WSOF is paying their lowest tier fighters nearly a decade later.

Jon Jones made $6000/$6000 in his UFC debut. After 3 wins he was making 20K/20K. After five wins he was making 70/70. He now makes 500K + reebok + PPV points +potential performance bonuses. Want to be paid amongst the best? Be amongst the best.

 

[eiyuu]

Not math. But using the same model of comparison it could be said No promoters = no events = no fights = no fighters = no money.

Organizations need fighters and fighters need organizations. WSOF still has $500/$500 payouts.

Comparing the UFC to other sports is not an accurate comparison. An NFL TV deal is worth more annually (1.93 billion USD in 2014) than the UFC is bringing in in revenue. Comparing the UFC to other MMA organizations is a more fair comparison, and the UFC dwarfs the other organizations in fighter compensation. The lowest fighter pay I could find for the UFC was from 2007, and that was a 3,000/3,000 deal...or 6x higher than WSOF is paying their lowest tier fighters nearly a decade later.

Jon Jones made $6000/$6000 in his UFC debut. After 3 wins he was making 20K/20K. After five wins he was making 70/70. He now makes 500K + reebok + PPV points +potential performance bonuses. Want to be paid amongst the best? Be amongst the best.

Why more posters here don't understand this is beyond me.

You get paid more when you've proven that you're worth it.

Another example? GSP started off making $3k/3k disclosed in the UFC. Ended making $4.5 million per fight according to Forbes.

It's called EARNING IT.

 

[smart.feller]

It's called EARNING IT.

I have a theory on this.

How old are you?

 

[Coolidge]

Jon Jones made $6000/$6000 in his UFC debut. After 3 wins he was making 20K/20K. After five wins he was making 70/70. He now makes 500K + reebok + PPV points +potential performance bonuses. Want to be paid amongst the best? Be amongst the best.