Letter from Karl Gotch about Matt Furey

I know some of you disagree with Jake and everything that happened. There was/is a long thread about everything that happened on bullshido if your interested in getting all the details. As far as Tony's linage goes, I'm not sure if it can be "proven" at this point. Maybe it can be maybe it cant. I liked his LAOH DVD's and it is what got me into Catch. I think it's good for the basics of catch wrestling. Whether you disagree with Jake or not, you have to admit that he puts out some good instructionals from known guys with proven histories. I mean you have
Mark Schultz - Olympic gold medal winner
Billy Robinson - Trained at Wigan for 7-8 years and trained the guys in Japan
Wade Schalles - 2x NCAA Champion

The list goes on and on....
 
how old is cecchine btw?
everytime i see him he seems to get older.
and people say that he is sick.
 
The "Cecchine is a fraud" meme was created and marketed by Shannon. Tony was never as slick about marketing as Shannon, nor is he an internet squatter who peppers every grappling forum with attacks on his "competitors."

The "shady" character of "Cecchine" is a Shannon-created construct. People who've known Tony for years and have trained with him extensively know a complete different person than the one often portrayed on the 'net. And that's because the depiction you get online comes largely from people like Shannon and his cohort, who needed to diminish Cecchine's reputation in order to build their own businesses.

Ironic to see Mr Iatskevich on this thread talking about Cecchine's lineage. He probably never thought that two years later, the chickens would be coming home to roost:

Pro Wrestling Reborn: Jake Shannon and Kris Iatskevich: Catch Wrestling's NEWEST Newest Crisis of Confidence

Full disclosure: I am a student of Cecchine's. I'm also a close friend. And I can tell you what Shannon and others cannot: Tony is not at all like the caricature that's been created for online consumption.

I'm happy that the truth is finally coming out. Tony's biggest mistake was to say nothing all these years. He felt he shouldn't have to -- because the video instructionals he's put out should speak for themselves.

At any rate, it turns out that Tony wasn't the one creating lineages and selling snake oil.

Cecchine is an amazing resource -- one that many people don't take advantage of because the same few voices on these fora have spent years running him down.

It's important that you recognize that: the same people over and over in forum after forum.

Do what I did when I read about all this nonsense a couple years back. Look at the videos for yourselves. Talk to Cecchine and his competitors. Decide who has the better program for you. And then train with whomever you think will help you most.

But don't make the mistake of dismissing Cecchine out of hand because Jake Shannon -- who runs a "scientific mind control" business that essentially brags about how he can manipulate audiences -- tells you that you should.
 
Jesus moron, now a 5 year old thread ?!

Obviously no one cares about this case anymore, other wise there would be plenty of other threads for you to copy and paste the same old bullshit.

Just let it die.

And for the record, this is the kind of thing hes teaching?

Heres one of my favs, get your back taken.


And heres one his student "created". He calls it a "Brian's Brain Buster"

Word for word quote from that one, "Because the pull down on the head, alone, is not smart. He could easily use this other hand to post back up on his own forehead and counter the pressure, this way, im squeezing in on the knees."

Geez, do you think maybe putting your foot on his hip, adjusting the triangle, then perhaps hip bumping his hand to the opposite side of his body might work?
 
After reading all this I have come to the conclusion.....I want to learn Catch Wrestling.
 
I dont know anything about this guy, but I find it kind of ironic Jake Shannon is calling someone else a fraud.

When I posted a very similiar thread about this, he contacted me with legal threats and had the thread taken down from Sherdog (I'm guessing with similiar legal threats).

Jake: You are a in position to call nobody a fraud. You have done nothing in the sport of grappling and you claim to be a scientific mind control expert! Fair warning, I wont bash you on a public forum or question your legitamacy, but you have to earn that respect through appropriate behavior (ie. not bashing someone else).

*edit* Didn't realize this was an old thread, but I'll leave the message up, the irony can still be appreciated.
 
BTTinUSA said:
Word for word quote from that one, "Because the pull down on the head, alone, is not smart. He could easily use this other hand to post back up on his own forehead and counter the pressure, this way, im squeezing in on the knees."

Geez, do you think maybe putting your foot on his hip, adjusting the triangle, then perhaps hip bumping his hand to the opposite side of his body might work?
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all those moves from the guard tony was showing ive seen in a relson gracie bjj class, so know that before you go off talking shit half cocked here.

also, the "taking the back" move youre poking fun at, i've seen helio doing standing shoulder locks like this before too. ive always liked the catch details of twisting the arm on keylocks and kimuras, but i do find it hard to make work for me.



while it is annoying to here tony c. saying "what i like to call and arm drag" and talk like he invented things, its possibly more annoying seeing these islly prejudices against moves that you would otherwise take as gospel if a gracie showed you.
 
tommy the kid said:
all those moves from the guard tony was showing ive seen in a relson gracie bjj class, so know that before you go off talking shit half cocked here.
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First of all, i wasnt criticizing all of the moves, just the finish on the triangle. I use armdrags like that all the time. In fact, they are my go to move from guard.

And I dont give a flying shit what class you THINK youve seen that in. And I put that in bold because i doubt very much Relson teaches that triangle as a proper form to finish the triangle, EXACTLY as shown in the video. That is NOT the ideal way to finish a triangle. Hip bumping the arm, and clearing it ACROSS your body then pulling the head while squeezing your knees is the ideal way.

The least experienced blue belt will tell you that triangle did not have the correct angle to begin with to finish without an adjustment.

tommy the kid said:
also, the "taking the back" move youre poking fun at, i've seen helio doing standing shoulder locks like this before too. ive always liked the catch details of twisting the arm on keylocks and kimuras, but i do find it hard to make work for me.
Click to expand...

A "standing shoulder lock" is different from what he was demonstrating. He was using the "double wrist lock" as a bone breaker, and saying how ineffective a shoulder lock is. Youd have to be delusional to think you wont get your back taken, or be taken down when you try to apply that.

tommy the kid said:
while it is annoying to here tony c. saying "what i like to call and arm drag" and talk like he invented things, its possibly more annoying seeing these islly prejudices against moves that you would otherwise take as gospel if a gracie showed you.
Click to expand...

No, not really. If Helio himself tried to show me a "double wrist lock" like how Tony demonstrated, i would respectfully decline to use it. I would also point out the same issues i think i see with the move and ask for his explanation.

Of course im no expert, but i have an understanding of grappling, and that technique, i can honestly say, wouldnt work on a resisting opponent who also grappled.
 
if you want catch, go to the shamrocks, or the japanese guys.
 
A "standing shoulder lock" is different from what he was demonstrating. He was using the "double wrist lock" as a bone breaker, and saying how ineffective a shoulder lock is. Youd have to be delusional to think you wont get your back taken, or be taken down when you try to apply that.
Click to expand...
Spoken like someone who's never felt it -- and who doesn't even understand what it is he's attempting to criticize.

The standing double wrist lock is, as Tony makes clear (well, at least, I thought he did; but evidently, saying it explicitly STILL won't work for some people), a COMPOUND LOCK.

He doesn't say, as our poor benighted critic here would have you believe, that it is ineffective as a shoulder lock. On the contrary, it's very effective as a shoulder lock if done properly.

What he says is that the FIRST PART of the move is a forearm break. And I can tell you from experience that when this is applied, the LAST THING you're thinking is "I'll take his back."

For one thing, your arm is twisted and you are not in any position to come around for the back (the arm twist is what moves the opponent so that he can't square up, can't bar arm, can't reach through, etc). You are in a wholly unnatural position. For another, the same kind of bone on bone pain you get from, say, a shin lock, is the kind you experience here on the forearm.

The SECOND part of the compound move is to attack the shoulder. Should you want to or need to. What Tony DOES say in the clip is that when he applies the lock he oftentimes doesn't have to worry about the shoulder, because it's enough to use the forearm pain as either a come along, or, if he needs to, he can hook the guy -- that is, snap the forearm.

Again, until this has been applied to you with that twist and the bone on bone pressure on the forearm, you have no idea how painful it is. This is NOT a standard standing Kimura.

But whatever. At least you linked the video, so people can decide for themselves.

While you're at it, though, you may as well have linked the counter:

YouTube - Tony Cecchine's American Catch Wrestling: standing double wristlock counter
 
Heavy Ryght said:
Thats funny...


Thats the same double wrist like Sakuraba used to break Renzo Gracies arm...

and then Gracie took his back...wait..no that didnt happen did it :icon_chee
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Well it's a variation at least. In fact this one looks even more effective. The fact is Sakuraba would often let his opponent take his back and then apply the kimura/double wristlock from there when they body locked him.

If people watched the video carefully they will see that Tony C adds the proviso that you need to angle on your opponent so he is bent over and to your side so that he can't take your back.

What I didn't like was the in one of the setups he says you can throw body shots and then you will be set to take the arm as it will be in position (low and in front). Later he adds it won't work on someone if they have their hands above their elbow which is pretty much exactly how someone would react (even untrained) to a body shot. You naturally pull your elbows in and your hands will be higher making the double wristlock impossible to obtain.
 
aries said:
The fact is Sakuraba would often let his opponent take his back and then apply the kimura/double wristlock from there when they body locked him.

.
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Very true, this is something that BJJ/GJJ guys have a hard time understanding. But it is imo very effective and they were not ready for that type of move when facing Sak. It is also one of the first things you learn when training CACC or Sub Grappling with the Japanese influence.

The early chain you learn is straight arm-to-DWL/Kimura-to-standing straight arm.
 
Well it's a variation at least. In fact this one looks even more effective. The fact is Sakuraba would often let his opponent take his back and then apply the kimura/double wristlock from there when they body locked him.
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Title Fight Productions said:
Very true, this is something that BJJ/GJJ guys have a hard time understanding. But it is imo very effective and they were not ready for that type of move when facing Sak. It is also one of the first things you learn when training CACC or Sub Grappling with the Japanese influence.

The early chain you learn is straight arm-to-DWL/Kimura-to-standing straight arm.
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So does Karo Pariysan. Which makes sense because he comes from a judo/catch background.

The fact is that Catch is submission over postition which is the opposite of good BJJ. I look back at my style 10 years ago when I was much more catch influenced then I am now and I did things then that just seem wrong now, but they worked.
 
Heavy Ryght said:
Why should or do, the Shamrocks, and or the Japanese have a franchise on Catch Wrestling... There are alot more then just them. What about


Tony Cecchine

Billy Wicks

Mark Hatmaker

Gene LeBell

Gokor Chivichyan

Erik Paulson

Matt Hume

Billy Robinson

Mark Flemming

and thats just stateside and probolly the most popular trainers

you also have :

Kris Iatskevich ( Canada )

Andreas Schmidt ( Germany )

Viktor Krueger ( Austria )

Eugenio Tadeu ( Brazil )
Click to expand...

Are there any recent intervies with Lebell in regards to grappling/MMA today?
 
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