Letter from Karl Gotch about Matt Furey

[Horus]

I know not what to think. But I do find it interesting that Cecchine and Furey have questionable pasts and strangely neither have an entry on wikipedia. Wikipedia? I mean everyone and everthing has an entry on there. It's like they have put a stop to it so as not to get exposed.

 

[Flexwave2003]

Wikipedia isnt exactly what I call validation for anything to be honest with you. But I can only imagine what would happen to Tonys wiki page if one were to exist.

The truth is though, Tony may very well have a wealth of knowledge to share. He probably gets more than his fair share of criticism, and I will probably refrain from doing it the future. Because really, I dont know the guy nor do I have any connections to any catch wrestling camps. Ive seen quite a few people take him to task, I dont want to be one of those guys.

 

[KILL KILL]

I actually bought furey's product several years ago and it never showed up. That bastard ripped me off!

 

[Horus]

Wikipedia isnt exactly what I call validation for anything to be honest with you. But I can only imagine what would happen to Tonys wiki page if one were to exist.

The truth is though, Tony may very well have a wealth of knowledge to share. He probably gets more than his fair share of criticism, and I will probably refrain from doing it the future. Because really, I dont know the guy nor do I have any connections to any catch wrestling camps. Ive seen quite a few people take him to task, I dont want to be one of those guys.

Yeah I know, just every man and his dog has an entry on there and these guys are relatively known (notoriously or otherwise) in the grappling world and have nothing.

 

[jlee14]

you know cecchine has always intrigued me as well, but i never could muster up the courage to buy his products cause people rip on him so much. i guess his opposition succeeded in some ways.

RMATA Forum - Intersting Catch Wrestling Blog online

i think this thread is interesting at first but then jake shannon gets involved too much and it goes downhill from there. I think Jake Shannon brings up some great points but at the same time makes it feel like a personal vendetta. Nothing personal towards you Mr. Shannon, I liked your fujiwara dvd.

I seen his material and it doesn't seem that bad. I would like to know more about Mr. Cecchine as a person though. How old he is, what he does, does he teach?

 

[Il Wop-O]

Porche's run with out water all day long

AIRCOOLED REAR-ENGINES FTW!!!!!!!:icon_chee

God love the 911.

But my 951 is watercooled. And a front-engine turbo.

 

[Sloth]

"Wrestling is opposite of what people think it is, it is not strength but knowledge, balance, and timing, leverage and where to place the fulcrum, that

 

[Shadowdean]

horray 3 year old thread!

 

[jlee14]

horray 3 year old thread!

true, but it is a topic that comes up from time to time, this was just revived!

 

[Flexwave2003]

Actually a thread on Matt Furey popped up in the heavyweights, and while doing some research I ran acrossed this thread and bumped it.

I could have just started a new thread, over an already rehashed subject. But Im sure some brilliant kid would get the idea to tell me to use the search feature lol.

 

[el_cazador]

Furey is a crook. No question about that. Digging up Farmer Burns' instructional and trying to hawk it for an arm and a leg while it was available free online is a prime example.

As for Jake Shannon -

While he is helping boost the popularity of catch wrestling, and has some excellent instructionals on his website, I feel he did more damage to the credibility of CACC with his bashing of Tony C.

Up until guys like Tony C and Furey started pushing catch wrestling, it was generally unknown to the masses (though still is, but is growing), and these guys, including Shannon, were looking to tap into a market where there was a possibility for money to be made. Just as the Gracies had done with their JJ in the early UFC events. The only difference is that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was proven in modern (at the time) MMA competition, while catch wrestling never had a 'representative' in MMA who was competing for the sole purpose of demonstrating the effectiveness of the art.

Enter Jake Shannon, who thought up the brilliant idea of dragging Tony C's name through the mud to help push his own "Scientific Wrestling" products. Had Jake simply started pushing his own products without the smear campaign, he probably would have done just as well, and would not have created all the controversy and questions about the credibility of CACC. Here now is a an example of the pot calling the kettle black. Shannon has, on a few occasions, put down Tony C's Certification Program, which I'm told, takes a few years to complete, and he's only certified a handful of wrestlers to date. Meanwhile Jake has his own Cert., which consists of a few weeks of training and about $1000 to become a "Certified Catch Wrestler". Sounds great, until one of these "Catch Wrestlers" gets owned by a BJJ blue belt, leading to the belief that catch is no good.

In my opinion, Furey is a douchebag with some legit skill, Jake Shannon is a snake, and Tony C, who's been on the recieving end of bad publicity, is a very legit grappler and a decent instructor, although he is an asshole and is full of himself.

 

[Blast D*]

oh no catchz wrestlinz!

 

[_Glorfindel_]

Furey is a crook. No question about that. Digging up Farmer Burns' instructional and trying to hawk it for an arm and a leg while it was available free online is a prime example.

As for Jake Shannon -

While he is helping boost the popularity of catch wrestling, and has some excellent instructionals on his website, I feel he did more damage to the credibility of CACC with his bashing of Tony C.

Up until guys like Tony C and Furey started pushing catch wrestling, it was generally unknown to the masses (though still is, but is growing), and these guys, including Shannon, were looking to tap into a market where there was a possibility for money to be made. Just as the Gracies had done with their JJ in the early UFC events. The only difference is that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was proven in modern (at the time) MMA competition, while catch wrestling never had a 'representative' in MMA who was competing for the sole purpose of demonstrating the effectiveness of the art.

Enter Jake Shannon, who thought up the brilliant idea of dragging Tony C's name through the mud to help push his own "Scientific Wrestling" products. Had Jake simply started pushing his own products without the smear campaign, he probably would have done just as well, and would not have created all the controversy and questions about the credibility of CACC. Here now is a an example of the pot calling the kettle black. Shannon has, on a few occasions, put down Tony C's Certification Program, which I'm told, takes a few years to complete, and he's only certified a handful of wrestlers to date. Meanwhile Jake has his own Cert., which consists of a few weeks of training and about $1000 to become a "Certified Catch Wrestler". Sounds great, until one of these "Catch Wrestlers" gets owned by a BJJ blue belt, leading to the belief that catch is no good.

In my opinion, Furey is a douchebag with some legit skill, Jake Shannon is a snake, and Tony C, who's been on the recieving end of bad publicity, is a very legit grappler and a decent instructor, although he is an asshole and is full of himself.

Hummm...

It's funny that some of the well known catch guy like Barnett, Paulsen, Billy robinson, Fujiwara ect. are with Jake Shannon and Scientific wrestling but are not very kind toward Tony C.

You dont know shit about the certification program. They dont 'train' you. You have to come and 'show' your catch skill (it's like passing a belt) to be 'certified'

Ccatch wrestling never had a 'representative' in MMA ??

Go ask Barnett,fujita,Sakuraba, Paulsen if catch is not 'legit'

You dont know what you're talking about.

 

[el_cazador]

It's funny that some of the well known catch guy like Barnett, Paulsen, Billy robinson, Fujiwara ect. are with Jake Shannon and Scientific wrestling but are not very kind toward Tony C.

Jake Shannon is producing the videos. These guys are making money and promoting CACC. Hmmm... of course their gonna deal with him. SW has some great instructionals as I said, and I usually recommend SW as well as Tony C's tapes for anyone interested.

Also, Barnett and Paulson have both endorsed Tony C numerous times. In fact, if you search this forum, there is a thread where Barnett posted and actually recommended Tony C's instructionals for anyone looking to get into CACC.

You dont know shit about the certification program. They dont 'train' you. You have to come and 'show' your catch skill (it's like passing a belt) to be 'certified'

I've rolled with two SW certified catch wrestlers. They were horrible. And as far as I know, every student who pays the $$, gets certified (I'm not saying that is 100% true, but judging by the quality of the two I rolled with, well...)

Ccatch wrestling never had a 'representative' in MMA ??

Go ask Barnett,fujita,Sakuraba, Paulsen if catch is not 'legit'

You dont know what you're talking about

Holy fuckin comprehension skills, man. If you read my post, I stated that CACC never had a rep in MMA who competed for the purpose of showing the quality of CACC and it's effectiveness, as compared to Royce Gracie in the early UFC's. Go back and read the post again. If you can't find the point I was trying to get across, I'll explain it further.

I also don't believe I stated that 'catch' is not legit. Why would I? I've been practicing 'catch wrestling' for 15 years. That's why it burns me when a guy like Jake Shannon feels the need to create controversy and help to throw catch wrestling's credibility out the window.

 

[catch.wrestler]

here we go.....

 

[_Glorfindel_]

You dont have to be a great grappler to get the level 1 certification. If you're doing catch for 15years, i hope you dont have difficulties to beat level 1 guys...

My english is not perfect, but you have to explain to me why Shannon is 'throwing catch wrestling's credibility out the window'.

there is a lot of politics in bjj and it look likte there is some in cacc too..

 

[Kforcer]

Where I disagree with you: this desire to prove that "pro-wrestling is strong" factors largely into Ikuhisa Minowa, Kazushi Sakuraba(who said exactly that after beating Silvera) and people's desire for Funaki to come out of retirement to face Rickson after Takada was beaten by him.

Actually, many catch-wrestlers have held fights for the purpose of proving that "pro wrestling is strong."

The UWF'ers fights against Thai boxers in the 80's and early 90's, for example. Really, quite similar to the initial UFC; Thai boxers were brought in simply so that they could be beaten in front of an audience and show how effective the UWF guys were at submissions.

Ken Shamrock was proudly representing Pancrase in the initial UFC, of course he wanted to prove it's worth. And really, he did.

Okay, now for where I agree with you:

The guy who first formally taught me submissions--Matt Shaw, who is an awesome teacher and a great guy--initially trained with some of the guys who were part of that Satoru Sayama/Nakamura wave that swept around America in the earlier part of the 90's, but he told me a few times that he studied Cecchine's DVD's very closely.

Of course, I trashed Cecchine being an internet buff, but the fact is, now when I look at Cecchine's leg-attack DVD, I realize that the way I initially learned to do the same-side Achilles lock is the way he demonstrates, and pretty much the same with the toe-hold. And I've won matches with the same-side Achilles, so apparently I'm in Cecchine's debt. And looking back, I think his leg-attack DVD is actually quite excellent. Does he execute things as smoothly as Lou Thesz when he shows Thesz using a technique and then demonstrates it? No, but there's only one Thesz. He does elaborate on the moves in depth and effectively though.

As far as Jake Shannon, well, I definitely agree that his mud-slinging is distasteful and the way he jumped on Cecchine in that MMA.tv thread was also not very cool IMO. Also, he tends to downplay anyone not affiliated with him or his products, i.e., Lou Thesz(who endorsed Tony Cecchine and never met Shannon).

Also, by narrowly defining catch-wrestling as a set of rules which just so happens to be the exact set of rules he's used in the tournaments he endorsed, it obviously gives him a huge marketing advantage.

Pancrase has always referred to their grappling competitions as "catch as catch can", the notion of what catch wrestling is seems to be embodied in Combat Wrestling but apparently, they don't count because they don't fit the rules outlined by Scientific Wrestling.

Not saying Jake is a bad guy by any means, but I think he should--and perhaps he has, I haven't been following--move away from the "eliminate or defame the competition" approach. In some respects, I think Jake Shannon's site is excellent.

 

[el_cazador]

Nice read, man. Thanks.

I hadn't given thought to the japanese wrestlers and the UWF guys. Good point. I think what I was getting at was that as far as CACC in America, these guys, Furey, Cecchine, Jake Shannon, were probably looking for the same kind of surge in the US that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu enjoyed due to Royce's success in the UFC, but I think these guys used poor tactics.

Glorfindel - what I meant by that is when Jake Shannon started accusing Tony C of being a fraud, he stirred up a hornets nest. Catch wrestling had a small following to begin with. Now you've got all this attention on one of the men at the forefront, who is now believed to be a fraud. People hear this and start to think that if the guy who is supposed to be one of CACC's best is actually a joke, they look at the whole system as a joke.

Not saying Jake is a bad guy by any means, but I think he should--and perhaps he has, I haven't been following--move away from the "eliminate or defame the competition" approach. In some respects, I think Jake Shannon's site is excellent

.

That is my stance on Jake's marketing approach as well. He could have saved a lot of headache had he left the politics out of it. But I think as of late a lot of the smoke is clearing and not so many people are caught up in the fraud accusations on Cecchine.

 

[PhillyD45]

Kforcer - I have had the same thoughts. Well said.

Both are proponents of Cath, which is awsome.

Jake does business in a "neater package",
Tony C has a shady feel but produced a quality product.
Furry is a douche who is ruining his name not catch.

But at least the art is getting out there in the public.

 

[Kforcer]

One of the cans of worms that really needs to be closed and tossed away is the idea that Cecchine is bad because he doesn't have a legit "lineage."

It runs away from the question of whether or not the actual grappling instruction is quality or not and now too many catch enthusiasts seem more interested in "lineage" or in people thinking they are "legit" than in actually being good.

But Jake Shannon crosses over into bad taste by attacking Tony Cecchine's relationships with Stanley Radwan and Lou Thesz and then undermining the legitimacy of both Thesz and Radwan. There's no good reason for doing either.