Lets use facts and logic

[Mamou]

Maybe Reyes shouldn’t have left it in the judges hands.

Maybe the judges should've glanced over the scoring criteria and judged the fight correctly

 

[nevernamed]

He didn't get wobbled and Reyes missed most of those strikes, just because someone is pushing forward and swinging, doesn't mean he's doing anything (unless it's a setup for a KO which didn't happen).

he got dropped once! and sure looked to be wobbled or hurt at another point. but there were times where Reyes looked like he was pouring it on and Jones was ducking and weaving and rolling through everything too. but Jones definitely was dropped once and hurt a second time later

 

[TheOldMan]

Got a laugh out of the thread title.

Facts and logic don't apply at sherdog.com

 

[egk]

The facts are that the UFC and the judges are biased af.

What do you think people on Sherdog are? Jones is hated on here and fans judge on emotions.

 

[Klippy]

Maybe the judges should've glanced over the scoring criteria and judged the fight correctly

MMA judges aren’t great as viewers of the sport we all know this and the fighters know this too.

 

[markys00]

Anyone that didnt score Reyes the first 3 rounds is a fuckin retard

Retard alert lololol

 

[HardasNAILZ]

Does your name happen to be Joe Solis?

No pal. My names is HardasNAILZ

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Second Round: this was a very close round, Reyes started big landing more shots, Jones controlled the middle of the round with pressure, octagon control and aggressiveness, Reyes than finished strong landing good strikes, the issue with that Jones looked pretty bad when in those exchanges, turning his back and running from the fight.
Because it was a close round and no clear winner, I will say its a 10-10 round but I'm willing to debate this.

The new scoring system subordinates “pressure, octagon control and aggressiveness” to damage. Reyes was still fully in “kicking Jon Jones’s ass” mode in the second round.

Reyes did more in the first minute than the winning fighter typically does in your average round in the UFC, culminating with Jones turning his back and running (if we still care at all about control, aggression, etc.) Even if you think the big offensive at around the 4:15 mark looked better than it was (that’s probably the case) Reyes still stung him

They basically spar the rest of the round. Competitive round, but the only way I can see Rd. 2 to Jones is if you break the round down by time and say you thought Jones was “winning” for more than half of it, which is clearly not how it works, especially under the new scoring. And I’m still not sure that would be enough. Jones has the center of the octagon but he’s not landing big shots. Lots of his patented leg work, mostly of the soft, probing variety, while Reyes was sitting down on body shots and the occasional big counter to the head when Jones was coming in. Reyes landed good kicks too. If you skipped the first minute entirely it still would’ve been a round that was open to interpretation.

 

[UFCIsNOTRigged]

First of all, this wasn't a robbery as people say, its a highly debatable fight was the 2nd round was a very close round. Also, the judge that gave 4-1 Jones needs to retire/resign.
Also, we have an opportunity to watch this fight couple of more times to judge it properly, the judges had to make a decision than (not the 4-1 guy, that was embarrassing).


Second Round: this was a very close round, Reyes started big landing more shots, Jones controlled the middle of the round with pressure, octagon control and aggressiveness, Reyes than finished strong landing good strikes, the issue with that Jones looked pretty bad when in those exchanges, turning his back and running from the fight.
Because it was a close round and no clear winner, I will say its a 10-10 round but I'm willing to debate this

Fourth round: Jones won that by good pressure, octagon control, wrestling and was more aggressive. the takedowns were very quick and Reyes got back up immediately but he was getting tired because of this.
Jones 10-9.

in my opinion and using my bias against Jones but he looked very weak in the last 2 fights he arguably edged both Santos and Reyes, First one by Santos ruining his knees in the middle of the fight and this one as he couldn't Adjust to the fight in time, leaving him exposed.

This is giving the rest of the division hope that they can dethrone him.
Jones is not the same dominating fighter as he was.
USADA, Mileage, not being sharp and using his advantages enough, going into a kickboxing match and looking vulnerable, exposed as his defense is running away sometimes, turning his back to the opponent.
People starting to notice this and I think he is in a position to feel threatened by the competition.

Reyes looked good which means he is hungry for success, his went there and I believe try his shot at winning this fight instead of trying to make one hail mary attempt like Poirer vs Khabib, he went for the long game and unfortunately, he was very close.

Looking forward to a possible rematch and Jan vs. Anderson.
Jones showing weakness makes the LHW much more interesting.

Jones should definitely get a lot more credit for the second round. Reyes wasn't landing during that flurry which Jones ran away from. And they were trading for much of the second round.

But if were going to give Jones credit for the second round, by your logic, why shouldn't we give Reyes get credit for the fourth round? I know it was hard to follow over Joe Rogans dumb, uninformed, fangirling over his mans prowess during the 'epic championship rounds'. But Reyes actually hurt Jones badly at the beginning of the fourth round. Jones was getting rocked, blood gushing out of his nose, and in a total act of desperation tried to take the fight to the floor. Thats why the successful takedown lasted all of three seconds. Also, when the two were actually wrestling on the cage later in the fourth Reyes stuffed his repeated takedown attempts. Both of them were tired, not just Reyes, but the only thing we heard was how tired Reyes was.

 

[shankmcgank]

First of all, this wasn't a robbery as people say, its a highly debatable fight was the 2nd round was a very close round. Also, the judge that gave 4-1 Jones needs to retire/resign.
Also, we have an opportunity to watch this fight couple of more times to judge it properly, the judges had to make a decision than (not the 4-1 guy, that was embarrassing).

First round: Reyes caught Jones off guard resulting in a clear 10-9 victory.
Clearly had more shots and he landed better strikes.

Second Round: this was a very close round, Reyes started big landing more shots, Jones controlled the middle of the round with pressure, octagon control and aggressiveness, Reyes than finished strong landing good strikes, the issue with that Jones looked pretty bad when in those exchanges, turning his back and running from the fight.
Because it was a close round and no clear winner, I will say its a 10-10 round but I'm willing to debate this

Third round: I believe Reyes won that with no issue, landed more, was aggressive enough and he won the exchanges, didn't get taken down and defended the wrestling very good. 10-9 Reyes.
It showed a little fatigue when he sat down on the stool so, at that time, I believed this is when Jones takes control of the fight.

Fourth round: Jones won that by good pressure, octagon control, wrestling and was more aggressive. the takedowns were very quick and Reyes got back up immediately but he was getting tired because of this.
Jones 10-9.

Fifth Round: Jones did the same as the fourth, controlled the fight even landed better than Reyes who was obviously fatigued. Reyes still showed prowess when he got back up after several TDs. Still based on the aggression and control, Jones 10-9.

in my opinion and using my bias against Jones but he looked very weak in the last 2 fights he arguably edged both Santos and Reyes, First one by Santos ruining his knees in the middle of the fight and this one as he couldn't Adjust to the fight in time, leaving him exposed.

This is giving the rest of the division hope that they can dethrone him.
Jones is not the same dominating fighter as he was.
USADA, Mileage, not being sharp and using his advantages enough, going into a kickboxing match and looking vulnerable, exposed as his defense is running away sometimes, turning his back to the opponent.
People starting to notice this and I think he is in a position to feel threatened by the competition.

Reyes looked good which means he is hungry for success, his went there and I believe try his shot at winning this fight instead of trying to make one hail mary attempt like Poirer vs Khabib, he went for the long game and unfortunately, he was very close.

Looking forward to a possible rematch and Jan vs. Anderson.
Jones showing weakness makes the LHW much more interesting.

Where does the term "several takedowns" come from ?

He only landed 2 in the entire fight.

Reyes stuffed 7 others.

 

[Gilday]

Reyes 1, 2 and 3

Octagon control and aggression are only used when you can't decide a winner on effective striking and grappling. If you stuff any takedown attempt, land the harder shots and outstrike your opponent... literally what else do you have to do for it to be effective striking?

 

[Ideanudge]

Some mouthbreathing Conor fan feeling obnoxious enough to use his "logic"

Nothing new

 

[Phi-]

Agreed to an extent but in this fight for the last three rounds Jones stood his ground, was accurate with his strikes, arguably did more damage, essentially marched Reyes down, outgrappled Reyes to what extent that mattered.. but to a judge you have to see that those are big keys to awarding a round to one fighter not the other. And this coming from someone that would have edged Reyes the fight.

I understand that reasoning, but it does seem to be quite arbitrary. When Nate Diaz walked down Conor or when Nick Diaz walked down Condit it didn't seem to matter. Judges basically just pick a winner and are weighing the judging criteria however they like after the fact. With Jons fight 2 TDs out of 8 (!) attempts without any damage done apparently counted towards him winning the grappling, while Latifi's TDs were worth less and the grappling wasn't as important against Lewis all of a sudden.

This is the reason MMA will never become a top sport, because betting revenues will never become huge if you can get fucked that easily.

 

[Mamou]

MMA judges aren’t great as viewers of the sport we all know this and the fighters know this too.

Well it's kinda their job, so...

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Fourth round: Jones won that by good pressure, octagon control, wrestling and was more aggressive. the takedowns were very quick and Reyes got back up immediately but he was getting tired because of this.
Jones 10-9.

Everyone has written this round off since Reyes didn’t really need it to theoretically win a decision....

But this was a close round. I just watched it again, and think it’s a really fascinating round to study in the context of the way rounds are scored and rounds (and fights) are perceived by observers (judges, announcers and fans alike).

Reyes beats the shit out of Jones for the first thirty seconds, arguably his best offensive of the fight. He landed a good leg kick and a jab, then two strong right hooks that appear to hurt Jon’s left eye, then a hard left that backs him up to the cage, then a hard left cross that sends Jones into survival wrestling. (Reyes may have landed some other glancing shots during this exchange, but let’s call it 4-5 big head shots versus maybe one glancing leg kick for Jon).

Okay, so it’s the 4:30 mark. Jones is way behind but there’s a lot of time. He works hard for the takedown and momentarily gets it. He doesn’t land a single strike, other than two weak knees (Dom only lands one weak hammerfist during this exchange), before Reyes gets a separation at the 3:45 mark and Rogan notes that Jones is bleeding from the nose. If damage is the primary factor in the current scoring system—and it is—the first quarter of the round is a complete wipe out in favor of Dom Reyes. Jon’s wrestling was crucial, but only as a defensive measure. It stopped the bleeding (metaphorically) but he mounted literally zero offense with it.

(Incidentally Jones is warned once again about eye pokes. I think Dan would have taken a point if Jon had landed the kind of gouge he’s landed in past fights, making this a draw. Smart of Reyes to be so vocal about that pre-fight).

Reyes lands a lunging left cross (hard to tell how clean or strong from the shifting camera angle), Jones lands an okay step-in elbow, the probe with some jabs that miss. We are now at the 1/3 mark and Jones has landed almost nothing.

Really nice low kick from Jones to kick off the middle third of the round, but does nothing else before shooting for a takedown at the 3:00 mark. Reyes defends, Jones lands a knee and elbow in the clinch versus an uppercut from Reyes. Reyes now mostly coming up short on his combos, but lands two decent rights to the body and a left to the head as we pass the halfway mark. Jones is doing basically nothing, but nevertheless it feels like Reyes is the one who will be fortunate to survive the remaining 7:30. Even though he’s the one landing he looks defensive doing it.

Good low kick for Jon. Reyes returns, Jones catches but can’t do anything with it. They stare in the mirror; another leg kick for Jones at the 2:00 mark. Soft jab, good body shot from Jones right when we enter the final 1/3 of the round. Looks like Jones landed an elbow but it’s unclear how hard it landed. They trade hard lefts to the head. Good body shot by Jones, can’t tell if Reyes landed anything to answer or not. Left to the head blocked but right hand to the body lands for Reyes. Good body kick from Jones and then has a head kick blocked as we head into the final minutes.

Commentators keep repeating how much fresher Jones is. They are correct, but the striking is still pretty even. Neither guy is landing combos at this point. Reyes is clearly more exhausted but isn’t getting beaten up. (Was I the only one who wanted to FedEx a comb to Dom’s corner between rounds? He would’ve looked half as haggard with a better haircut).

Nothing else as we creep past the :30 mark. Okay jab from Jones. Headkick from reyes blocked. Okay left hook and stomping kick from Jones. Reyes lands an uppercut and left hook but not a ton behind it. Great body-head combo from Jones and then a straight right and the round is over.

The stats posted at the time had the round 19-12 Jones in terms of significant strikes. Not as close as I expected, and I think it’s probably much closer picture if you differentiate between hard punches and probing kicks.

I really wonder how this round is perceived if (a) we couldn’t see the fighters’ faces; (b) we didn’t know who these fighters were; and/or (c) there were no announcers. Reyes is taking big breaths through his mouth and looks like he just got waterboarded. Jones just looks like he’s in the middle of a good hard spar at the gym. The announcers (mirroring the fans I’m sure) are also clearly ready to give voice to the familiar narrative of Jones taking over in the championship rounds.

But strike for strike I don’t think that’s what we actually saw. Reyes dominated the first third of the round; the middle third was very light on action; and Jones clearly (but only moderately) better in the final third.

That brings me to another point: how does our perception change if we reverse the order of those “thirds”? If the round starts with Reyes looking winded and Jones landing crisper shots, but finishes with Reyes cracking Jones and sending him into retreat before hanging on to a takedown attempt when the bell rings.......a lot of people are calling this a Reyes round, right?

I’ve gone back and forth about whether-/and how much—timing should matter. I do believe that there’s a big difference between escaping a RNC and getting up and getting saved from one by the bell, even if you get up with 2 seconds remaining. But if both guys have their moments, does it matter which comes first? I really don’t know. When one guy starts to take over a competitive fight late, is that a sign that his shots have probably done more damage throughout the fight? I think that was the case in Marty vs Colby. But in McGregor-Diaz II it was clearly a gas tank issue, and I think the same can be said here too. Do we reward Jones for looking fresher in the last minute of the round after Reyes burned up his fuel blasting Jones with bombs in the first minute of the round?

I don’t hate giving this round to Jones......but I’m not at all convinced about it. Under the new scoring his takedowns should count for essentially zero. We have to be careful about going overboard on visible damage (especially since we are scoring round by round and you can’t always be sure which round the damage was done), but Jones walks away from this round with a bloody nose and a busted up eye, while Reyes can’t be distinguished from a marathon runner. And even if we ignore visible damage I think it’s fair to say that the hardest combinations were landed by Reyes, and the only time either fighter looked to be “in trouble” was when Jones was on the back foot in the first 30 seconds or so of the round.

I’m not entirely sure where I stand yet, but I will say that I think this is the closest round of the fight. It’s easier for me to give 4 to Reyes than it is for me to give 1, 2 or 3 to Jon.

Thoughts?

 

[Rum]

Lol, well too be fair 6 strikes isn't "handily winning" the striking, that's the definition of close (especially when you're watching the fight real time without the luxury of stats showing up on your screen) making it very likely you will score in favor of the guy you perceive as the aggressor since he is the one constantly coming forward and pressuring.

Keep in mind the Judges have a much shitter view then you do at home in situations like this dude and don't have the benefit of real time stats, replays or commentary.

C'mooooooooooooooon bro

Over 5 minutes 20+ strikes is a solid enough rate that if one guy is 6 ahead by the end of the round, that's plenty

The rule states you don't give a shit about who is "the aggressor" unless the striking is 100% even

27:21 (give or take) is one guy landing around 33% more than the other

The rule states 100% even

It wasn't even 90% even

It wasn't even 80% even

Jon landed around 77% of what Reyes landed over 5 minutes

I mean ... c'mooooooooooooooon



See! Even Jon's teammate Karate Hottie is shaking her head at you!

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

When one guy handily wins the striking and the grappling is even (or non-existent) then octagon control and aggressiveness don't count

R2
10-9 Reyes
for outstriking Jon about 27-21

It's actually absurd, I was reading the OP and he was literally saying it was a 10-10 round because Jones "CONTROLLED THE OCTAGON" while Reyes landed effective strikes. Jesus Christ. It's not King of the Hill, you're allowed to use the entire octagon.

 

[Mahkor]

Reyes 1,2,3

 

[mooseman17]

You should look up the official scoring criteria in regards to octagon control and pressure.

 

[FIGHTING TALK]

Everyone has written this round off since Reyes didn’t really need it to theoretically win a decision....

But this was a close round. I just watched it again, and think it’s a really fascinating round to study in the context of the way rounds are scored and rounds (and fights) are perceived by observers (judges, announcers and fans alike).

Reyes beats the shit out of Jones for the first thirty seconds, arguably his best offensive of the fight. He landed a good leg kick and a jab, then two strong right hooks that appear to hurt Jon’s left eye, then a hard left that backs him up to the cage, then a hard left cross that sends Jones into survival wrestling. (Reyes may have landed some other glancing shots during this exchange, but let’s call it 4-5 big head shots versus maybe one glancing leg kick for Jon).

Okay, so it’s the 4:30 mark. Jones is way behind but there’s a lot of time. He works hard for the takedown and momentarily gets it. He doesn’t land a single strike, other than two weak knees (Dom only lands one weak hammerfist during this exchange), before Reyes gets a separation at the 3:45 mark and Rogan notes that Jones is bleeding from the nose. If damage is the primary factor in the current scoring system—and it is—the first quarter of the round is a complete wipe out in favor of Dom Reyes. Jon’s wrestling was crucial, but only as a defensive measure. It stopped the bleeding (metaphorically) but he mounted literally zero offense with it.

(Incidentally Jones is warned once again about eye pokes. I think Dan would have taken a point if Jon had landed the kind of gouge he’s landed in past fights, making this a draw. Smart of Reyes to be so vocal about that pre-fight).

Reyes lands a lunging left cross (hard to tell how clean or strong from the shifting camera angle), Jones lands an okay step-in elbow, the probe with some jabs that miss. We are now at the 1/3 mark and Jones has landed almost nothing.

Really nice low kick from Jones to kick off the middle third of the round, but does nothing else before shooting for a takedown at the 3:00 mark. Reyes defends, Jones lands a knee and elbow in the clinch versus an uppercut from Reyes. Reyes now mostly coming up short on his combos, but lands two decent rights to the body and a left to the head as we pass the halfway mark. Jones is doing basically nothing, but nevertheless it feels like Reyes is the one who will be fortunate to survive the remaining 7:30. Even though he’s the one landing he looks defensive doing it.

Good low kick for Jon. Reyes returns, Jones catches but can’t do anything with it. They stare in the mirror; another leg kick for Jones at the 2:00 mark. Soft jab, good body shot from Jones right when we enter the final 1/3 of the round. Looks like Jones landed an elbow but it’s unclear how hard it landed. They trade hard lefts to the head. Good body shot by Jones, can’t tell if Reyes landed anything to answer or not. Left to the head blocked but right hand to the body lands for Reyes. Good body kick from Jones and then has a head kick blocked as we head into the final minutes.

Commentators keep repeating how much fresher Jones is. They are correct, but the striking is still pretty even. Neither guy is landing combos at this point. Reyes is clearly more exhausted but isn’t getting beaten up. (Was I the only one who wanted to FedEx a comb to Dom’s corner between rounds? He would’ve looked half as haggard with a better haircut).

Nothing else as we creep past the :30 mark. Okay jab from Jones. Headkick from reyes blocked. Okay left hook and stomping kick from Jones. Reyes lands an uppercut and left hook but not a ton behind it. Great body-head combo from Jones and then a straight right and the round is over.

The stats posted at the time had the round 19-12 Jones in terms of significant strikes. Not as close as I expected, and I think it’s probably much closer picture if you differentiate between hard punches and probing kicks.

I really wonder how this round is perceived if (a) we couldn’t see the fighters’ faces; (b) we didn’t know who these fighters were; and/or (c) there were no announcers. Reyes is taking big breaths through his mouth and looks like he just got waterboarded. Jones just looks like he’s in the middle of a good hard spar at the gym. The announcers (mirroring the fans I’m sure) are also clearly ready to give voice to the familiar narrative of Jones taking over in the championship rounds.

But strike for strike I don’t think that’s what we actually saw. Reyes dominated the first third of the round; the middle third was very light on action; and Jones clearly (but only moderately) better in the final third.

That brings me to another point: how does our perception change if we reverse the order of those “thirds”? If the round starts with Reyes looking winded and Jones landing crisper shots, but finishes with Reyes cracking Jones and sending him into retreat before hanging on to a takedown attempt when the bell rings.......a lot of people are calling this a Reyes round, right?

I’ve gone back and forth about whether-/and how much—timing should matter. I do believe that there’s a big difference between escaping a RNC and getting up and getting saved from one by the bell, even if you get up with 2 seconds remaining. But if both guys have their moments, does it matter which comes first? I really don’t know. When one guy starts to take over a competitive fight late, is that a sign that his shots have probably done more damage throughout the fight? I think that was the case in Marty vs Colby. But in McGregor-Diaz II it was clearly a gas tank issue, and I think the same can be said here too. Do we reward Jones for looking fresher in the last minute of the round after Reyes burned up his fuel blasting Jones with bombs in the first minute of the round?

I don’t hate giving this round to Jones......but I’m not at all convinced about it. Under the new scoring his takedowns should count for essentially zero. We have to be careful about going overboard on visible damage (especially since we are scoring round by round and you can’t always be sure which round the damage was done), but Jones walks away from this round with a bloody nose and a busted up eye, while Reyes can’t be distinguished from a marathon runner. And even if we ignore visible damage I think it’s fair to say that the hardest combinations were landed by Reyes, and the only time either fighter looked to be “in trouble” was when Jones was on the back foot in the first 30 seconds or so of the round.

I’m not entirely sure where I stand yet, but I will say that I think this is the closest round of the fight. It’s easier for me to give 4 to Reyes than it is for me to give 1, 2 or 3 to Jon.

Thoughts?

Accurate as hell breakdown hard to argue but to play devil’s advocate by the fourth round Reyes was in recovery mode, not to say he was not still dangerous however he did not seem effective beyond that thirty second mark and toward the mid way point of the round it could be argued was entirely ineffective due to fatigue.