Media Last Word : Joel Suprenant breaks down Askren-Lawler

[flowoftruth]

I get it. you're confused b/c robbie recovered so quickly.

you can go in and out. it's happened to me before. No one would have known I was out from a poor technique head & arm choke if I hadn't asked everyone how long I was out for. Everyone thought I defended and just stood back up when the timer rang.

I've seen people just get dizzy for a split 2nd and get back up.

Like I said, many different stages of losing oxygen.

When you arm goes limp and the ref has to check up on you - You are not passing with flying colors.

Watch the 2nd camera angle:



Herb lifts Robbie's arm easily, there is no resistance or defense of the choke.

And when herb lets go of Robbie's arm, it retracts without any strength and circles down first ...before coming back up to give a thumbs up.

But by then it's too late b/c Dean is already looking towards Askren to pull him off and signal an end to the fight.

The time to thumbs up is the FIRST time the ref touches you. Not after he's already telling Askren to let go. Sure it's confusing b/c Robbie was winning and Robbie recovered so quickly. That's just because robbie was in shape and he was ready to go for a few more rounds. Still got choked.

Take it from a guy who was sitting front row.

Nevada State Athletic Commission executive director Bob Bennett joined the post-fight press conference event to discuss the incident and how he thought Dean performed. "In this particular question with the bulldog choke on Robbie, you could see it right in front of us that when Herb picked up his hand, his hand just dropped,” Bennett said. “It just dropped, which would be indicative of him being out. And then [Dean] went ahead and grabbed his hand again and it came up a little and it moved ever so slightly. There was no doubt in our mind that he was out.”
https://www.mmamania.com/2019/3/3/1...235-controversy-robbie-lawler-was-clearly-out

What's with the essays ? Just before the fight ended robbie signaled the ref that he was okay and he was fully conscious on the break. Anything else is irrelevant.

 

[Dirge]

Also valid complaint, I personally wanna see the rematch but I acknowledge all the reasons of why the rematch is stupid. But damn, I just wanna see it.
It feels like the hardcore MMA fanbase is pretty much 50/50 on this issue, no idea how the UFC should proceed.

Lots of Welterweight will soon be shaken up when prospects like Ismail Naurdiev or established great fighters like Elizeu Zaleski finally get their opportunity to crash into the (stale) WW Top 10.

I'd like to see it again too but Lawler needs to win a couple of fights and improve his profile. I'm a fan of both fighters (although to be fair I was hoping for Askren to win) but if a casual fan looks at Lawler's record from a distance it looks like he is on a major decline.

In the last 5 years, Lawler has been in absolute wars having gone a full 5 rounds "6" times against Condit, RDA, Rory, Brown, pre-USADA Hendricks (twice). That's a hell of a lot of ring time against some very aggressive guys. He's gone 6-4 in those 5 years and he has 3 losses now in his last 4.

I say let Askren fight Till and Lawler can fight Wonderboy. They both need a win to stay relevant.

 

[Ryeboi]

What's with the essays ? Just before the fight ended robbie signaled the ref that he was okay and he was fully conscious on the break. Anything else is irrelevant.

Here's a little poem for you.

Robbie got choked.
Arm went limp.
Ref checked arm - no resistance.

Ref stopped fight.
Ben let go.
Robbie thumbs up - Sorry too late.

 

[fightfan84]

I get it. you're confused b/c robbie recovered so quickly.

you can go in and out. it's happened to me before. No one would have known I was out from a poor technique head & arm choke if I hadn't asked everyone how long I was out for. Everyone thought I defended and just stood back up when the timer rang.

I've seen people just get dizzy for a split 2nd and get back up.

Like I said, many different stages of losing oxygen.

When you arm goes limp and the ref has to check up on you - You are not passing with flying colors.

Watch the 2nd camera angle:



Robbie's arm has already gone limp once without defending the choke. This camera angle is showing what happens when Herb goes to check up on Robbie. Herb lifts Robbie's arm easily, there is no resistance or defense of the choke.

And when herb lets go of Robbie's arm, it retracts without any strength and circles down first ...before coming back up to give a thumbs up.

But by then it's too late b/c Dean is already looking towards Askren to pull him off and signal an end to the fight.

The time to thumbs up is the FIRST time the ref touches you. Not after he's already telling Askren to let go. Sure it's confusing b/c Robbie was winning and Robbie recovered so quickly. That's just because robbie was in shape and he was ready to go for a few more rounds. Still got choked.

Take it from a guy who was sitting front row.

Nevada State Athletic Commission executive director Bob Bennett joined the post-fight press conference event to discuss the incident and how he thought Dean performed. "In this particular question with the bulldog choke on Robbie, you could see it right in front of us that when Herb picked up his hand, his hand just dropped,” Bennett said. “It just dropped, which would be indicative of him being out. And then [Dean] went ahead and grabbed his hand again and it came up a little and it moved ever so slightly. There was no doubt in our mind that he was out.”
https://www.mmamania.com/2019/3/3/1...235-controversy-robbie-lawler-was-clearly-out

Robbies arm never went limp though is the issue. There's angles where you can see him adjust his position after it falls. An unconscious person couldn't do that. As well the angle you showed is Robbie clearly conscious and responding to the refs check herb Dean big John the Gracie's and many many other more informed people have stated it was a horrible stoppage .using Bennet as an example after those all stars is embarrassing man lol think about it

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

To everyone that's NEVER grappled...

There are two things you do naturally to defend a choke:
1. Put your chin down to your chest.
2. Pull the attacker's arm from around your neck.

What about defenses for "not chokes"?

 

[fightfan84]

I'd like to see it again too but Lawler needs to win a couple of fights and improve his profile. I'm a fan of both fighters (although to be fair I was hoping for Askren to win) but if a casual fan looks at Lawler's record from a distance it looks like he is on a major decline.

In the last 5 years, Lawler has been in absolute wars having gone a full 5 rounds "6" times against Condit, RDA, Rory, Brown, pre-USADA Hendricks (twice). That's a hell of a lot of ring time against some very aggressive guys. He's gone 6-4 in those 5 years and he has 3 losses now in his last 4.

I say let Askren fight Till and Lawler can fight Wonderboy. They both need a win to stay relevant.

Askren didn't get a proper W against Lawler and Lawler never took a proper L. Any educated fan knows this .any educated professional knows this.

 

[Dirge]

What about defenses for "not chokes"?

The move Askren used is known as a Bulldog "choke". Newton used in on Militech for a win. It's a real choke, just not used often as it's hard to get into position.

 

[Dirge]

Askren didn't get a proper W against Lawler and Lawler never took a proper L. Any educated fan knows this .any educated professional knows this.

What are you talking about? Do we have a bunch of Philosophy Professors on here screaming in protest?

If you bothered to read my prior posts you would see my perspective. I'd like to see Askren and Lawler fight again as it would probably be another crazy fight.

That said, Askren is on the title hunt (especially now that Woodley doesn't have the belt) and fighting Lawler again does nothing to get him a title shot.

 

[flowoftruth]

Here's a little poem for you.

Robbie got choked.
Arm went limp.
Ref checked arm - no resistance.

Ref stopped fight.
Ben let go.
Robbie thumbs up - Sorry too late.

Thumb came up before the stoppage geppetto

 

[VVarhead]

I'd like to see it again too but Lawler needs to win a couple of fights and improve his profile. I'm a fan of both fighters (although to be fair I was hoping for Askren to win) but if a casual fan looks at Lawler's record from a distance it looks like he is on a major decline.

In the last 5 years, Lawler has been in absolute wars having gone a full 5 rounds "6" times against Condit, RDA, Rory, Brown, pre-USADA Hendricks (twice). That's a hell of a lot of ring time against some very aggressive guys. He's gone 6-4 in those 5 years and he has 3 losses now in his last 4.

I say let Askren fight Till and Lawler can fight Wonderboy. They both need a win to stay relevant.

I like you, you're a good poster man. Refreshing to have some actual discussion on here.

 

[fightfan84]

What are you talking about? Do we have a bunch of Philosophy Professors on here screaming in protest?

If you bothered to read my prior posts you would see my perspective. I'd like to see Askren and Lawler fight again as it would probably be another crazy fight.

That said, Askren is on the title hunt (especially now that Woodley doesn't have the belt) and fighting Lawler again does nothing to get him a title shot.

The problem is you are treating his fight with Lawler as a Win. That's really the issue . I get on paper it's a W. But as a professional athlete that could be on the other end of a bad ref decision he should treat it for what it is and run it back.

 

[Airdack]

I completely agree with him, but seeing as fans are almost 50/50 on this fight and on this stoppage:
Why the fuck are people saying no to a rematch?

Oh yeah, Askren fans are scared of it, and Askren wants none of that rematch.

Cause Askren is 5 years late to the UFC, older, Les active and Lawler is his worse matchup on paper. Good TDD, good cardio, vicious power, aggressive. We watched Askren weather the storm, get the takedown, take his back, and then make Lawler go limp enough where the ref stopped it.

On to bigger and better things cause the guy doesn't have much time left. Plus his best buddy isn't champ anymore so even more incentive to match him up fast. If Till wins, then title eliminator with Till while Usman fights Colby. If Askren wins the Askren for the belt.

The guy is a undefeated champ in two different promotions, just squeezed by a former champ, and knows how to hype. Why waste that on risking another Robbie fight. Robbie is a dangerous fight for anybody, he pretty much derailed Rory's career from sheer violence.

 

[mon]

To everyone that's NEVER grappled...

There are two things you do naturally to defend a choke:
1. Put your chin down to your chest.
2. Pull the attacker's arm from around your neck.

When you see an arm drop to the floor...which is NOT a defensive maneuver and typically associated with passing out, it's natural to assume the choke worked.

Getting choked out is NOT like an ON or OFF button with only two stages. The longer you lose oxygen the worse the consequences. There are many stages from being fine to being dead. You can lose enough oxygen to feel "out of it" momentarily, lose enough oxygen to pass out for a split second, get choked out and go limp for several seconds, get choked so bad some of your organs begin to die, and of course never wake up again.

It depends on the person's body, how much energy they were expending, how tight the choke was and how long the choke was applied...

Robbie lost enough oxygen for his arm to drop to the canvas. That's all I needed to see.

Rule 1 defend your neck everything else is secondary. Excellent post BTW though I believe it was a premature stoppage only because Herb didn't stop it on the arm drop. If he had of it would have been a legit stoppage.

No difference to a flash KO and the person wakes hitting the canvas and defends himself and the fight continues. If the referee jumps in on the KO good stoppage but if he doesn't and the persons now defending themselves it's too late to stop it for the original incident.

I feel for Lawler but he should have shown himself to be defending himself, the fact he wasn't could easily be interpreted by the ref that he's not there. If one hand was working at Askrens grips or trying to ease pressure, one way or another we wouldn't all be arguing.

 

[Deleted member 460645]

the problem is there is angles of Robbie moving his hand to reposition himself as soon as his arm fell, clearly not unconscious. Also that's not when herb stopped the fight, that's when herb checked his consciousness, and Robbie passed with flying colors.

Sorry dude, long post and you are still wrong

...but he isn't you inept fool.

 

[Deleted member 460645]

Rule 1 defend your neck everything else is secondary. Excellent post BTW though I believe it was a premature stoppage only because Herb didn't stop it on the arm drop. If he had of it would have been a legit stoppage.

No difference to a flash KO and the person wakes hitting the canvas and defends himself and the fight continues. If the referee jumps in on the KO good stoppage but if he doesn't and the persons now defending themselves it's too late to stop it for the original incident.

I feel for Lawler but he should have shown himself to be defending himself, the fact he wasn't could easily be interpreted by the ref that he's not there. If one hand was working at Askrens grips or trying to ease pressure, one way or another we wouldn't all be arguing.

Thank you

 

[fightfan84]

...but he isn't you inept fool.

He is factually incorrect. Sorry pal

 

[Deleted member 460645]

He is factually incorrect. Sorry pal

Whatever floats your boat. If you have ever grappled you would know he is speaking hard truth.

 

[fightfan84]

Rule 1 defend your neck everything else is secondary. Excellent post BTW though I believe it was a premature stoppage only because Herb didn't stop it on the arm drop. If he had of it would have been a legit stoppage.

No difference to a flash KO and the person wakes hitting the canvas and defends himself and the fight continues. If the referee jumps in on the KO good stoppage but if he doesn't and the persons now defending themselves it's too late to stop it for the original incident.

I feel for Lawler but he should have shown himself to be defending himself, the fact he wasn't could easily be interpreted by the ref that he's not there. If one hand was working at Askrens grips or trying to ease pressure, one way or another we wouldn't all be arguing.

That's not how choke submission work. As spectators we don't have the benefit of knowing exactly how tight or how much pressure is being applied. We have no idea how bad of a state the fighter being choke is in or how much the fighter doing the choke is burning out his arms. If you have watched enough MMA there's many times chokes appeared to be a lock and the fight was basically over, and the fighter either escaped or the choker let go cause he burned his arms out. The main issue here is the arm falling. Now we have the benefit of camera angles that show Robbie repositioning his arm once it falls .Clearly not out. I get herb didn't have the benefit of seeing that angle live. But what he did next was check for consciousness on Robbie. Robbie responded in 2 ways. The first by keeping his arm lifted and pulling it away, and second by giving the thumbs up. Herb failing to aknolwedge that is the issue. A red should be aware at all times. It's not anything the same as a fighter eating strikes going out and coming back to. Using that analogy shows your lack of knowledge . But any rational MMA fan accepting this result as legit is absolutely crazy. Not even herb himself stands by it at this point. Horrible precedence to start having refs dictate when to stop of a fight based off a submission with the fighter not tapping or sleeping

 

[fightfan84]

Whatever floats your boat. If you have ever grappled you would know he is speaking hard truth.

It's not truth it's opinion. I've grappled for years it doesn't change anything. You assuming Robbie is unconscious doesn't change the fact we know for sure he wasn't. There's enough camera angles out now it's not even debatable . Do some research and come back

 

[Deleted member 460645]

It's not truth it's opinion. I've grappled for years it doesn't change anything. You assuming Robbie is unconscious doesn't change the fact we know for sure he wasn't. There's enough camera angles out now it's not even debatable . Do some research and come back

And I am supposed to take your word about your grappling history when you have shown absolutely zero knowledge of it?
No. Just, no.

You're right, it isn't debatable. Robbie went out.