Last night's fight = Proof that Fedor time Pride HW Division was vastly superior to modern UFC HW

[HHJ]

I like current era HW's

Gane,Aspinall,Pavlovich would have all done well 20 yrs ago of course. Just as Cain,DC,JDS and Stipe would have. And others.

 

[linvillegorge]

Fedor didn't lose because he became shot. The dude was still fast as fuck, his power seemed to only get better as he got older, and his Bellator stint showed his grappling was as strong as ever. His chin was always nothing special, that didn't change either.

Fedor began losing because he'd always been reckless and his opponents started to actually be able to gameplan for this. Ryan Bader literally said he KO'd Fedor the first time because he'd studied his fights and realized he was weak at reacting to that punch. Don't believe him? The Bellator commentators themselves literally listed it pre-fight as one of Bader's keys to victory. Even they saw that hole.

Fedor very easily could've retired with only the Bigfoot loss. That's the only fight he just got beat pillar to post. The rest of his losses are him fighting like a retard and his opponents exploiting it. That's on him.

He stopped grappling at all. I bet he was developing bad knees or a bad back or something. He basically turned into Hendo just head hunting that fastball of an overhand right. Yeah, he was still fast as fuck but stylistically he was a completely different fighter.

 

[HHJ]

Fedor didn't lose because he became shot. The dude was still fast as fuck, his power seemed to only get better as he got older, and his Bellator stint showed his grappling was as strong as ever. His chin was always nothing special, that didn't change either.

You keep saying that,but it isnt true. When he fought Murdernado,he couldnt grapple at all. We sometimes saw "flashes" of his old self,but he was absolutley slower than he used to be. He couldnt close the distance fast like he used to.

Fedor HIMSELF in an interview said,he is nothing like he used to be. His power got better as he got older??? in Bellator?? how?? Power is the last thing to go of course,but how did it get BETTER?? How much better could his power actually get???

I think that Fedor was of course alot more effective when his stats were all maxed out in his prime. Then he was extremely fast,could cover distance in a nanosecond,and deal out heavy damage,and any mistake by the opponent,or if they let him get underhooks,and they got flung to the mat,and destroyed,or submitted. That explosive way of fighting,is just not going to stay at the same level when you age,and accumulate injuries. Its just common sense. The talent is still there,but the body doesnt react as fast as it used to. The reflexes are dulled.

 

[HHJ]

Antonio Silva destroyed prime Fedor and made him quit on his stool/no mas. Big foot then proceeded to get destroyed by a green DC. Fedor was good because he was ahead of the curve, but lets not carried away.

If your ahead of the curve by 10 fuckin yrs it means something else. I mean,your basically saying Fedor sucked because he was only undefeated for 10 yrs and not 20. What other HW can say that?

 

[Aspiring Ultracrepidarian]

Fedor literally tossed Chael and Mir, two expert grapplers, around like it was nothing in Bellator. His grappling skills were still amazing.

You live in denial about Fedor's actual problems which were his recklessness, lack of gameplans, and stagnation. Something that isn't at all in dispute considering it's literally the cause of all of his losses except TK and Bigfoot. Guy jumps into Werdum's guard, slugs with Hendo, has a double KD against Mitrione, and gets repeatedly caught against Bader of all people and you guys still blame it on de-evolution even though the problems are staring you straight in the face.

The thing that devolved was his brain. Not his body.

100% Fedor could've gone his entire career with the only real loss being to Bigfoot. Every other one he could've won if he didn't fight so stupidly.

He had a nice throw against Mir, ya. His reversals and manhandling of Chael were flashed of Fedor of old. You seem to be confusing the assertion his skillset declined with assuming that means he completely lost the skills. You can't lose those skills.

He devolved his game, whether through mindset, training choices, or who knows what. Regardless, his game declined.

 

[mkt]

Are you saying that because Ngannou and Cormier are both retired/out of the UFC?

I think Ngannou/Cormier/Stipe/Jones/Blaydes/Aspinall beat the fuck out of those PRIDE guys IMO - that's not even counting up and comers like Pavlovich/Spivac/Almeida either.

The whole thing about Pride having "K-1 fighters like Cro-Cop so their striking was muuuuch better!" was debunked in the hardest way when a 2-loss Ngannou went to a SD with the HW boxing champ. I mean Cro-Cop won K-1 again when he was old AFTER getting KO'd by Schaub, Mir, Gonzaga, etc. in the UFC.

 

[HHJ]

The whole thing about Pride having "K-1 fighters like Cro-Cop so their striking was muuuuch better!" was debunked in the hardest way when a 2-loss Ngannou went to a SD with the HW boxing champ. I mean Cro-Cop won K-1 again when he was old AFTER getting KO'd by Schaub, Mir, Gonzaga, etc. in the UFC.

It's almost like he fights better in a ring with bigger gloves.

 

[ermac88]

Fedor, Nog, Cro-Cop, Coleman, Randleman, etc of the Pride Heavyweight Division were vastly more skilled than the current UFC Heavyweight Division, and last night's fight proved that.

Unfortunately, the UFC Heavyweight Division has devolved into a bunch of one-dimensional strikers that suck at all other aspects of MMA. The only exceptions to this rule being Curtis Blaydes, Tom Aspinall, and now Jon Jones.

Opinions?

Discuss.

Look what happened immediately when Fedor and Crocop entered sanctioned fights




Against legit MW and gatekeepers no less.

They had no chance a decade ago. how the hell would they have a chance today?

 

[snugglecakes]

Good by kid, you're blocked. When you grow up, we can talk.

yeah you better go hide from daddy... just like fedor hiding from any legitimate heavyweight division

 

[TheBulge]

Fedor didn't lose because he became shot. The dude was still fast as fuck, his power seemed to only get better as he got older, and his Bellator stint showed his grappling was as strong as ever. His chin was always nothing special, that didn't change either.

Fedor began losing because he'd always been reckless and his opponents started to actually be able to gameplan for this. Ryan Bader literally said he KO'd Fedor the first time because he'd studied his fights and realized he was weak at reacting to that punch. Don't believe him? The Bellator commentators themselves literally listed it pre-fight as one of Bader's keys to victory. Even they saw that hole.

Fedor very easily could've retired with only the Bigfoot loss. That's the only fight he just got beat pillar to post. The rest of his losses are him fighting like a retard and his opponents exploiting it. That's on him.

It's true. There was literally zero difference whatsoever between the Fedor who beat Arlovski(widely claimed to be his career-best performance at the time) and the one who got destroyed in Strikeforce. Probably because there was only 1-2 years between.

My opinion regarding Fedor will always be the same. Which is that he had the benefit of being the only great well rounded HW of his time and he beat one dimensional HW's to make his legacy. He never beat a great well rounded HW and he didn't start facing them untill SF. As badly as he got beaten, it would have been even worse if he was in the UFC and JDS and Cain got their hands on him.

Werdum, Hendo and Bigfoot Silva are very dangerous standing as well as on the ground. It was too much for Fedor, as the same old tricks standing (overhand right into a judo throw) didn't work, and when it hit the ground his wild GnP and reversals/armbars didn't work either.

Not a top 5 HW GOAT. More of a pioneer.

 

[HHJ]

It's true. There was literally zero difference whatsoever between the Fedor who beat Arlovski(widely claimed to be his career-best performance at the time) and the one who got destroyed in Strikeforce. Probably because there was only 1-2 years between.

My opinion regarding Fedor will always be the same. Which is that he had the benefit of being the only great well rounded HW of his time and he beat one dimensional HW's to make his legacy. He never beat a great well rounded HW and he didn't start facing them untill SF. As badly as he got beaten, it would have been even worse if he was in the UFC and JDS and Cain got their hands on him.

Werdum, Hendo and Bigfoot Silva are very dangerous standing as well as on the ground. It was too much for Fedor, as the same old tricks standing (overhand right into a judo throw) didn't work, and when it hit the ground his wild GnP and reversals/armbars didn't work either.

Not a top 5 HW GOAT. More of a pioneer.

Why couldnt we leave this guy behind in the old forum??

 

[TheBulge]

Insecure Pride widows getting all butt-hurt after every big UFC HW fight never gets old.

LOL @ insecure Pride widows. Perfect term for them.

 

[moreorless87]

Fedor literally tossed Chael and Mir, two expert grapplers, around like it was nothing in Bellator. His grappling skills were still amazing.

You live in denial about Fedor's actual problems which were his recklessness, lack of gameplans, and stagnation. Something that isn't at all in dispute considering it's literally the cause of all of his losses except TK and Bigfoot. Guy jumps into Werdum's guard, slugs with Hendo, has a double KD against Mitrione, and gets repeatedly caught against Bader of all people and you guys still blame it on de-evolution even though the problems are staring you straight in the face.

The thing that devolved was his brain. Not his body.

100% Fedor could've gone his entire career with the only real loss being to Bigfoot. Every other one he could've won if he didn't fight so stupidly.

Well Chael himself was probably past his best by that point and was never that great a submission fighter but still that performance is lightyears away from classic Fedor, its vastly sloppier with Chael having several chances to escape were as a prime Fedor would probably have tossed him and subbed him in under a min.

 

[TheBulge]

Why couldnt we leave this guy behind in the old forum??

Did you get your daddy issues sorted out yet kid?

Why don't you answer the poster above who asked if it's acceptable to claim GOAT for a man who had 13 wins of his wins against this level of comp, many while he held the actual title:

martin lazarov (0-2)
levon lagilava (1-3)
hiroya takada (1-3)
mihail apostolov (0-1)
ryushi yanagisawa (24-25)
lee hasdell (9-14)
chris haseman (20-17)
gary goodridge (23-22)
yuji nagata (0-2)
naoya ogawa (7-2)
zulu (9-9)
hong man choi (4-5)
jaideep singh (2-3)

 

[HHJ]

Did you get your daddy issues sorted out yet kid?

Why don't you answer the poster above who asked if it's acceptable to claim GOAT for a man who had 13 wins of his wins against this level of comp, many while he held the actual title:

martin lazarov (0-2)
levon lagilava (1-3)
hiroya takada (1-3)
mihail apostolov (0-1)
ryushi yanagisawa (24-25)
lee hasdell (9-14)
chris haseman (20-17)
gary goodridge (23-22)
yuji nagata (0-2)
naoya ogawa (7-2)
zulu (9-9)
hong man choi (4-5)
jaideep singh (2-3)

All Roads lead to Saitama.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

The whole thing about Pride having "K-1 fighters like Cro-Cop so their striking was muuuuch better!" was debunked in the hardest way when a 2-loss Ngannou went to a SD with the HW boxing champ. I mean Cro-Cop won K-1 again when he was old AFTER getting KO'd by Schaub, Mir, Gonzaga, etc. in the UFC.

Pride for sure didnt have better strikers than the current division overall.

he had the benefit of being the only great well rounded HW of his time and he beat one dimensional HW's to make his legacy. He never beat a great well rounded HW and he didn't start facing them untill SF.

You dont consider Nog to have been a great well rounded HW? at least for the standards of the time. Herring was considered to be kind of a "new breed" at the time too in terms of how well rounded he was.

Also two of Fedors three losses in SF were to ex Pride guys who both had had multiple losses vs guys Fedor beat. I definitely think it was that he had declined in some way more so than 40 year old Hendo being a monster who could have stepped into a Pride ring circa 2004 and KO'd him in under 5 minutes...

 

[TheBulge]

Pride for sure didnt have better strikers than the current division overall.



You dont consider Nog to have been a great well rounded HW? at least for the standards of the time. Herring was considered to be kind of a "new breed" at the time too in terms of how well rounded he was.

Also two of Fedors three losses in SF were to ex Pride guys who both had had multiple losses vs guys Fedor beat. I definitely think it was that he had declined in some way more so than 40 year old Hendo being a monster who could have stepped into a Pride ring circa 2004 and KO'd him in under 5 minutes...

Definitely not, in fact Nog is actually a stereotypically one dimensional HW.

The reason I specifically state great well rounded HW's is for guys like Herring who may have technically been well rounded but that is a red herring, as he was not an all time great HW fighter. Fedor gets more credit beating a great one dimensional fighter than beating a well rounded not-great fighter. He never beat a great well rounded HW though, that is a fact and speaks volumes about his legacy, because it's not like he never faced them. He either lost to them or ducked them.

Those ex Pride guys you mention were able to evolve with the sport. Werdum for instance was a butt scooting BJJ fighter who could only slap opponents like a woman standing. Fast forward years later and he flying knee KO's a former K-1 champion, you get my point? Hendo went from pure wrestler to GnP fighter all the way to knocking out the best strikers standing, at his peak he could fight great anywhere the fight went except for on his back. He was a MW in his 40s though, so no excuses for Fedor there. His worst loss. He got outstruck standing and KO'd on the ground against a 40yo MW.

 

[HHJ]

Definitely not, in fact Nog is actually a stereotypically one dimensional HW.

The reason I specifically state great well rounded HW's is for guys like Herring who may have technically been well rounded but that is a red herring, as he was not an all time great HW fighter. Fedor gets more credit beating a great one dimensional fighter than beating a well rounded not-great fighter. He never beat a great well rounded HW though, that is a fact and speaks volumes about his legacy, because it's not like he never faced them. He either lost to them or ducked them.

Those ex Pride guys you mention were able to evolve with the sport. Werdum for instance was a butt scooting BJJ fighter who could only slap opponents like a woman standing. Fast forward years later and he flying knee KO's a former K-1 champion, you get my point? Hendo went from pure wrestler to GnP fighter all the way to knocking out the best strikers standing, at his peak he could fight great anywhere the fight went except for on his back. He was a MW in his 40s though, so no excuses for Fedor there. His worst loss. He got outstruck standing and KO'd on the ground against a 40yo MW.

He can strike,he can get people to the ground,he can submit them on the ground. From his back,or on top.

What is one dimensional about that?

 

[moreorless87]

To be honest as well in his prime even Nogs wrestling was pretty good or at least pretty effective similar to Maia were he could commit to it very deeply because he wasnt afraid of ending up on his back. He had a pretty fast shot for a HW and when timed right it took down many big names.

 

[Dionysian]

Derrick's been submitted only 2x in his career. He just spent 25 minutes in full mount without being subbed or KO'd.

The idea that his ground game sucks needs to die. It's literally what allows him to keep KOing guys.

It's his striking that actually sucks, which is why he loses there all the time instead of on the ground.

I said good technique, not that his ground game sucks necessarily. But kind of weird you're citing him spending 25 minutes mounted as an example in FAVOR of his grappling but I get what you're saying: I never said he wasn't durable/tough/physically strong. My point is no one would teach a lighter weight person new to grappling with a "hey let's watch a Derrick Lewis clip of what he does on the ground" too much.

In terms of his striking, I'm not educated enough to comment on how technical his swangin and bangin is. I know he's had good effect obviously with the sheer amount of KOs and that matters the most so *shrugs*.