Kyokushin Influences in Dutch Kickboxing

AndyMaBobs said:
Y'see that would be quite interesting to me, because I like to learn the style based on tradition rather than competition, not that I wouldn't compete (and I feel that muay thai has left me fairly adept sparring) but I would like to go to the london dojo to see how they do it.

Nah, I'm not from KO, I'm from Diesel Gym. I found that KO weren't interested in you if you weren't a fighter, and sometimes the instructors would be too busy on their mobile phones than training. I train just in muay thai though, I like watching MMA and have a lot of respect and a decent knowledge of grappling, but I just don't enjoy it enough to commit myself to training it.

Did you find that kyokushin was as radically different from Shotokan as people say it is?
Hey you should still give muay thai a go if you ever get spare time or money, not to replace kyokushin but it's just a lot of fun to train! :D
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don't want to deviate the topic too much, I'll answer you by pm ;)
 
shinkyoku said:
Actually he started training kempo (under a former kyokushin trainer) back in 2001 while he was still an active Muay thai fighter and reigning WKPL champion. He didnt compete under knockdown rules (as far as I know) until 2007, when he had "retired" (he has since fought more MT bouts), but that is another story (and it should be remembered that he was a world level pro-fighter facing amateur fighters in a small organization).
Sure his background is firmly MT based, but claiming he is pure MT is a stretch.
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Sakmongkol is definitely MT through and through. By 2001 he was on his Farang fighting retirement tour. What is WKPL? Never heard of it. He wasn't doing Kyokushin when he was fighting in the stadiums...
 
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I made this quick breakdown of a video tutorial thats been around for a while. I don't understand japanese so I don't know what they're saying in the original video.

Also this is an unlisted video because I'm bound to have made a few mistakes and I've just posted for the people who are regularly on this thread.

Here is the original video too:
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AndyMaBobs said:
[YT]f7YRsj130Ms&feature=youtu.be[/YT]
I made this quick breakdown of a video tutorial thats been around for a while. I don't understand japanese so I don't know what they're saying in the original video.

Also this is an unlisted video because I'm bound to have made a few mistakes and I've just posted for the people who are regularly on this thread.

Here is the original video too:
[YT]DMJ4H7cjwWU[/YT]
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Good stuff.
 
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Woop for my 100th post.
I thought it may also be relevant to post this here, seeing as he does seem to have quite the japanese karate style.
 
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At one point I thought it was established that Dutch Kickboxing was not nearly legit at all relative to Western/American pro boxing and that the top five ranked pro boxers in any weight class would effortlessly and quickly KO any Dutch kickboxers in a kickboxing or Muay Thai fight because Dutch kickboxers are simply inferior athletes who lack the physical and mental toughness of pro boxers. I guess not since there are still threads as intense as this one discussing Dutch kickboxers.
 
emax said:
At one point I thought it was established that Dutch Kickboxing was not nearly legit at all relative to Western/American pro boxing and that the top five ranked pro boxers in any weight class would effortlessly and quickly KO any Dutch kickboxers in a kickboxing or Muay Thai fight because Dutch kickboxers are simply inferior athletes who lack the physical and mental toughness of pro boxers. I guess not since there are still threads as intense as this one discussing Dutch kickboxers.
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That was never established.
 
emax said:
At one point I thought it was established that Dutch Kickboxing was not nearly legit at all relative to Western/American pro boxing and that the top five ranked pro boxers in any weight class would effortlessly and quickly KO any Dutch kickboxers in a kickboxing or Muay Thai fight because Dutch kickboxers are simply inferior athletes who lack the physical and mental toughness of pro boxers. I guess not since there are still threads as intense as this one discussing Dutch kickboxers.
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Que?

You can say what you want about Dutch kickboxers but they are tough as hell, both physically and mentally. If you're used to sparring just as hard as you would fight and do that 5x a week for years and years you are tough.
 
emax said:
At one point I thought it was established that Dutch Kickboxing was not nearly legit at all relative to Western/American pro boxing and that the top five ranked pro boxers in any weight class would effortlessly and quickly KO any Dutch kickboxers in a kickboxing or Muay Thai fight because Dutch kickboxers are simply inferior athletes who lack the physical and mental toughness of pro boxers. I guess not since there are still threads as intense as this one discussing Dutch kickboxers.
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what?
 
AndyMaBobs said:
Well you are partly right, 1925 was when the official codified rules of muay thai were put in place, and they started fighting in boxing rings instead of a circle in the ground, but where the fight takes place does not indicate the beginning of that fighting style. Muay Thai was around in the 1800s as well and I don't think you're argument about mua boran is completely accurate.

Because while jujitsu is the predecessor for judo, jujutsu is a clear defined martial art. Muay Boran is not, Muay Boran is an umbrella term for unnarmed martial arts before 20th century.

It's hard to say a definite yes or no, because judo shares a lot of similarities with jujutsu in the same way that muay thai and the sort of muay boran you see at demonstrations (I don't know how historically accurate it is) are also incredibly similar (I would say that they are more or less the same save for the stance and muay thai favouring more simple moves, which I believe the armed forces would have also favoured).

But yeah, it's sort of sketchy, it depends on what you define as the beginning of a martial art.
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Actually it's very similar. Jujitsu wasnt a single style either and pretty much covered all martial arts in japan ranging from striking based ones to armed swordsmanship.
 
As a matter of fact, Dutch kickboxing is another style of karate.
 
AndyMaBobs said:
So, I stumbled across some great stuff from Lucien Carbin. I would argue that Lucien Carbin is more influenced by muay thai than kyokushin, but a lot of people believe his style is the "next evolution" in dutch kickboxing:

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Something I've noticed a lot in Lucien Carbin's fighters is that they seem to utilise kicks far more than other dutch stylists (for example, Andy Ristie and Tyrone Spong earlier in his career) and they also have a tendancy to kick more to the body than we see from a lot of dutch stylists.

What I particularly like is the hook off of the roundhouse kick something we've seen from Gohkan Saki a lot as well as Melvin Manhoef before, but Carbin's fighters seem to do it a lot.

I must say I do very much like the technicality of his style, I can't personally spot much kyokushin influence (although some others may do) but I thought I would share on this thread again just because of how slick his fighters are. Those movements are fantastic.
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Here is a documentary which features him. He is an interesting charecter, I really like him

https://vimeo.com/103097895
 
AndyMaBobs said:
I'm definitely going to check this out. I saw a shorter one a little while ago (it was about 9 minutes long) and he is definitely an interesting person.
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3 MINS
12
18 MINS
24
Those are the times he speaks. It is funny when he discusses his training in Thailand
 
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Bang Rachan said:
3 MINS
12
18 MINS
24
Those are the times he speaks. It is funny when he discusses his training in Thailand
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I watched the whole thing in the end. It was really fascinating, I do however wonder if he was exaggerating about his fighters beating the Thais in the clinch, not that I don't believe its possible, if you're a good clincher you're a good clincher, but how much time would you have to dedicate to get on the level of thais who have been doing it far longer?

Also Thom Harrinck's parts were very interesting too. They are both guys I'd love to train with. It's a shame that Thom Harrinck is now enjoying a much deserved retirement.
 
AndyMaBobs said:
I watched the whole thing in the end. It was really fascinating, I do however wonder if he was exaggerating about his fighters beating the Thais in the clinch, not that I don't believe its possible, if you're a good clincher you're a good clincher, but how much time would you have to dedicate to get on the level of thais who have been doing it far longer?

Also Thom Harrinck's parts were very interesting too. They are both guys I'd love to train with. It's a shame that Thom Harrinck is now enjoying a much deserved retirement.
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Yeah they would be awesome to train with. He most probably was. I heard he is a bit big headed so I wouldn't be surprised. Maybe he meant that they held their own.

Thom seems honest in saying that he beat a few of the Thai guys. Both have interesting stories and paved the way for the younger generation.
 
Bang Rachan said:
Yeah they would be awesome to train with. He most probably was. I heard he is a bit big headed so I wouldn't be surprised. Maybe he meant that they held their own.

Thom seems honest in saying that he beat a few of the Thai guys. Both have interesting stories and paved the way for the younger generation.
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Yeah I've heard that, in the other documentary he said he's not arrogant but he feels that if you're good at something you should be proud of it. I believe the quote was somewhere on the lines of "if you're good at football, why can you only say 'I'm a bad football player' instead of saying 'I'm a good football player'"

I understand the logic, and I get why he believes he's aware of his abilities instead of arrogant, but we do seem to live in a society where the two gets lumbered in togehter a lot.

I love Thom Harrinck's persona in interviews, seems like a really great guy, honestly would have been the guy I'd love to train with the most. I am hoping to go to Mejiro now when I spend some time in holland. But we shall see.
 
AndyMaBobs said:
Yeah I've heard that, in the other documentary he said he's not arrogant but he feels that if you're good at something you should be proud of it. I believe the quote was somewhere on the lines of "if you're good at football, why can you only say 'I'm a bad football player' instead of saying 'I'm a good football player'"

I understand the logic, and I get why he believes he's aware of his abilities instead of arrogant, but we do seem to live in a society where the two gets lumbered in togehter a lot.

I love Thom Harrinck's persona in interviews, seems like a really great guy, honestly would have been the guy I'd love to train with the most. I am hoping to go to Mejiro now when I spend some time in holland. But we shall see.
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Hearing him say that is interesting and makes a lot of sense. I'd like to train at all of the gyms especailly FFC, Mikes and Vos.

I had a friend that trained in Mejiro gym for a bit and he said it was really good and the standards are high
 
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