Kyokushin Influences in Dutch Kickboxing

[Corgistampede]

No, I did understand what he was saying, and he does do shotokan but what he was saying was that he felt it was an outdated practise and we now know better:
http://www.karatebyjesse.com/why-karates-classic-heel-turn-is-scientifically-wrong/
Here was the article and video. Let me know what you think!

Oh, I've seen this before. They're European Karate Federation guys. Basically they don't follow a lot of traditional teachings, and I don't agree with how they train or teach things because they have completely sworn off ever doing full contact anything. Basically no power, but very fast.

 

[Boran]

Funny, in the 3rd video he keeps saying "You're not in Thailand" when Ilonka isn't holding up her guard when she teeps. He says "in thailand they don't punch much, in Holland they punch a lot".

Edit: Forgot to quote, but I'm replying to the last post on the previous page with the Lucien Carbin vids.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Oh, I've seen this before. They're European Karate Federation guys. Basically they don't follow a lot of traditional teachings, and I don't agree with how they train or teach things because they have completely sworn off ever doing full contact anything. Basically no power, but very fast.

So if rotating on your heel gives you more power, then why do so many of the really devastating kicking styles (like muay thai and kyokushin) choose to pivot on the ball of the foot? Bare in mind I don't have much knowledge of shotokan karate so I am speaking for ignorance here.

Funny, in the 3rd video he keeps saying "You're not in Thailand" when Ilonka isn't holding up her guard when she teeps. He says "in thailand they don't punch much, in Holland they punch a lot".

Edit: Forgot to quote, but I'm replying to the last post on the previous page with the Lucien Carbin vids.

Oh did he? Fair enough, I'll be honest I can't speak dutch. Y'see I saw quite a bit of thai influence there, and from an interview he did where he said his style he believes is muay thai but with a complete range of techniques from punches, kicks to clinch work (although I haven't seen much clinch work in his guys to know if that is true).

What do you make of this?

 

[Boran]

Oh did he? Fair enough, I'll be honest I can't speak dutch. Y'see I saw quite a bit of thai influence there, and from an interview he did where he said his style he believes is muay thai but with a complete range of techniques from punches, kicks to clinch work (although I haven't seen much clinch work in his guys to know if that is true).

What do you make of this?

I actually know him quite well. My father was trained by him in the 1980's and he regularly visits our gym. I have trained a couple of times with him and I have seen many of his fighters fight at events.

It's really a hybrid style and very different from other Dutch gyms. They use a lot of angles and many techniques are "off beat" or use a broken rhythm. He certainly is influenced by kyokushin through Mejiro gym. In his gym they still call him sensei and you hear Osu all the time. That is very common in Dutch kickboxing gyms. But in the last couple of years Carbin switched to Thai counting for instance. He has trained at Sityodtong in the early '80s or late '70s and his first gym was even called Sityodtong too.

His fighters can clinch very well for Dutch standards. I don't know how they would do in Thailand.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I actually know him quite well. My father was trained by him in the 1980's and he regularly visits our gym. I have trained a couple of times with him and I have seen many of his fighters fight at events.

It's really a hybrid style and very different from other Dutch gyms. They use a lot of angles and many techniques are "off beat" or use a broken rhythm. He certainly is influenced by kyokushin through Mejiro gym. In his gym they still call him sensei and you hear Osu all the time. That is very common in Dutch kickboxing gyms. But in the last couple of years Carbin switched to Thai counting for instance. He has trained at Sityodtong in the early '80s or late '90s and his first gym was even called Sityodtong too.

His fighters can clinch very well for Dutch standards. I don't know how they would do in Thailand.

Oh of course, I remember reading some posts from you on another thread where you mentioned your father. Thanks for information it's actually really helping. Y'see I thought the technique looked more Thai like but based on what you're saying it does really seem to be far more routed in karate.
I notice his guys wear the prajioud too.

Would you say kickboxing is quite big in holland or is it more of a niche sport? I ask because I would argue its the kickboxing capital of the world (if we're talking about kickboxing and not muay thai) but I've also heard it's not huge out there

 

[caspianV2]

the way it was explained to me is that dutch mauy thai hides its kicks with the hands. and your leg kicks are more directed towards the front of the leg as opposed to kicking the side of the leg. idk, I do a lot more boxing combinations now that I am in dutch mauy thai whereas when I was studying traditional mauy thai, it was a lot of kicking combinations.

 

[Boran]

Oh of course, I remember reading some posts from you on another thread where you mentioned your father. Thanks for information it's actually really helping. Y'see I thought the technique looked more Thai like but based on what you're saying it does really seem to be far more routed in karate.
I notice his guys wear the prajioud too.

Would you say kickboxing is quite big in holland or is it more of a niche sport? I ask because I would argue its the kickboxing capital of the world (if we're talking about kickboxing and not muay thai) but I've also heard it's not huge out there

Lucien Carbin started out as a kyokushin fighter. He even was a European champion and a black belt in it. Then he started kickboxing at mejiro gym, which is also heavily influenced by kyokushin. But his style has evolved. He's an interesting man who really thinks about fighting the whole day for over 40 years now. He picks things from boxing, muay thai, kyokushin, kickboxing and makes it his own style. It's definitely more evolved and sophisticated than the traditional Dutch kickboxing style (e.g. Robin van Roosmalen). Look at a guy like Ristie or early Spong for instance. These guys do something totally different than other Dutch fighters.

Kickboxing is big in Holland. Among the youth I'd say that 10% have taken a few lessons. In certain groups (mainly immigrants, Moroccans, Turkish) I would say that 50% have taken kickboxing classes at some point in their lives. There are kickboxing gyms in every small village (though the level varies greatly).

In the mainstream media you never hear anything about it though. You just read when a kickboxer has committed a crime, but when a Dutch kickboxer won a big tournament you won't read it anywhere. It has a very bad reputation in the Netherlands. Badr Hari didn't do any good to kickboxing for the mainstream audience, but even before that it had a bad reputation. Which is understandable, because there were so many incidents with kickboxers. Most famous is Andr

 

[Corgistampede]

So if rotating on your heel gives you more power, then why do so many of the really devastating kicking styles (like muay thai and kyokushin) choose to pivot on the ball of the foot? Bare in mind I don't have much knowledge of shotokan karate so I am speaking for ignorance here.

A good karate mawashi geri (roundhouse kick) should be a snap kick. The rotation is only half of the equation for us. The rotation plus the snap is what generates our power. Also, I'm pretty sure the kyokushin fighters rotate on the ball of the feet so that they can hit high kicks from crazy close range. I don't think that it has anything to do with power since the low mawashi geri of the kyokushin fighters that I've seen are done with pivots on the heel.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Lucien Carbin started out as a kyokushin fighter. He even was a European champion and a black belt in it. Then he started kickboxing at mejiro gym, which is also heavily influenced by kyokushin. But his style has evolved. He's an interesting man who really thinks about fighting the whole day for over 40 years now. He picks things from boxing, muay thai, kyokushin, kickboxing and makes it his own style. It's definitely more evolved and sophisticated than the traditional Dutch kickboxing style (e.g. Robin van Roosmalen). Look at a guy like Ristie or early Spong for instance. These guys do something totally different than other Dutch fighters.

I certainly agree with you there, funnily enough I was reading this morning about his kyokushin days, he had quite a bit of success. I would say that his style is less obviously kyokushin inspired (I mean I was certainly fooled, especially by early Spong who was very Thai like I found)

Personally I think Spong is at his best now but because he has developed a truly good nuanced boxing game rather than just a stereotypical dutch style like Roosmalen. I actually don't like Roosmalen's style much at all, no disrespect intended to him because it's clearly working for him to get where he is today but I find his style kind of almost dumb looking, it's not nearly as interesting to watch him fight as it is to watch people like Ramon Dekkers or Rob Kaman, who both had a punch-punch-low kick style, but I found it to be a lot more interesting to watch. (On a completely unrelated note, I still love the Thai style of Giorgio Petrosyan, he's a huge influence of mine sparring, although I'm VERY sh*t compared to him)

Kickboxing is big in Holland. Among the youth I'd say that 10% have taken a few lessons. In certain groups (mainly immigrants, Moroccans, Turkish) I would say that 50% have taken kickboxing classes at some point in their lives. There are kickboxing gyms in every small village (though the level varies greatly).

In the mainstream media you never hear anything about it though. You just read when a kickboxer has committed a crime, but when a Dutch kickboxer won a big tournament you won't read it anywhere. It has a very bad reputation in the Netherlands. Badr Hari didn't do any good to kickboxing for the mainstream audience, but even before that it had a bad reputation. Which is understandable, because there were so many incidents with kickboxers. Most famous is Andr

 

[NidNoi]

There's no Dutch when talking about a history of muay thai in Europe.

 

[heavenly kaghan]

Gotta say I agree, I find the whole term TMA a puzzling one to be honest seeing as (at least to my knowledge) Muay Thai is an older art than Karate, and Judo has only been around since what is to the UK the late victorian period. Do you think there's a certain way of training to have more longevity then? I noticed wrestlers seemed to age more gracefully in MMA than other styles (Dan Severn is the best example I can think of).

Yeah, but karate and judo is not younger than Muai Thai, let's not forget modern ring muay Thai started in 1920. If you think judo is new and different from jujitsu, then you should apply the same to muay Thai and see its difference with muay boran

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Yeah, but karate and judo is not younger than Muai Thai, let's not forget modern ring muay Thai started in 1920. If you think judo is new and different from jujitsu, then you should apply the same to muay Thai and see its difference with muay boran

Well you are partly right, 1925 was when the official codified rules of muay thai were put in place, and they started fighting in boxing rings instead of a circle in the ground, but where the fight takes place does not indicate the beginning of that fighting style. Muay Thai was around in the 1800s as well and I don't think you're argument about mua boran is completely accurate.

Because while jujitsu is the predecessor for judo, jujutsu is a clear defined martial art. Muay Boran is not, Muay Boran is an umbrella term for unnarmed martial arts before 20th century.

It's hard to say a definite yes or no, because judo shares a lot of similarities with jujutsu in the same way that muay thai and the sort of muay boran you see at demonstrations (I don't know how historically accurate it is) are also incredibly similar (I would say that they are more or less the same save for the stance and muay thai favouring more simple moves, which I believe the armed forces would have also favoured).

But yeah, it's sort of sketchy, it depends on what you define as the beginning of a martial art.

 

[Tayski]

I was actually looking for Ashihara but apparently the only ashihara dojo in the UK is in scotland. There are about four or five kyokushin dojos that I've found in the London area though. I'll have to take a look for Enshin Karate though. Daido Juku has always looked pretty cool but, again, never been able to find it.

There's a Daido Juku dojo in Slough: http://www.kudouk.com/kudo-training-venue.html
never been there though so can't tell you how good it is.

As somebody mentioned there's Shidokan in London: http://www.shidokan.org.uk/

Also since recently, Sensei Darren Stringer (3rd dan Kyokushin http://darrenstringer.com/) is giving "MMA Karate" lessons at easyGym in West Croydon. I haven't been to those classes yet but heard good feedback from one of my instructors, and I had the chance to train with Sensei Stringer a few times in the past and it was very technical and informative. Sempai Alan Shnawa assists him there
(https://www.facebook.com/alanjshnawa/info)

For actual Kyokushin, if you want a really tough dojo I recommend Bethnal Green dojo, with Shihan Graham Warden (6th dan) and Sempai Kenny Jarvis (2nd dan) as the main instructors. The dojo has had some great success in knockdown tournaments with names like Nick Da Costa (placed 6th at the World Tournament in 1984 when it was still only one united Kyokushin organisation), Darren Chan, Kenny Jarvis, and Timmy Warden (only ever Brit to win an IFK World Tournament).
It's my dojo (even though I haven't been able to train there for the last 2 months) and the toughest in London in my opinion, you will go home limping and bruised more than once ^^
If you're interested it's closed in August but back in September. The website is down at the moment but here's the Facebook page with address and training schedule: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bethnal-Green-Karate-Club/444352388999076?sk=info

Other dojos I tried and liked are Docklands dojo with Shihan Da Costa as main instructor (http://www.docklandsdojo.co.uk/), Tokei dojo in London Bridge (especially the fight club on Sunday morning which is basically 1 full hour of knockdown sparring), and Crystal Palace.

hope that helps

 

[Tayski]

My dojo is a WOK dojo, my sensei got his black belt from Soshu Oyama (founder of World Oyama Karate) himself I believe. The only difference between Kyokushin and World Oyama is that WOK has a series of kata called Kihon Kata that are taught before the standard kyokushin katas. Also, once we get to green belt we start working with weapons (bo, sai, and tonfa) and I think, not know but think, that kyokushin guys never train with weapons.

well you think wrong
It's not very common or regular to train with weapons for Kyokushin guys you're right, but some organisations/dojos do have it as part of their Syllabus, usually for higher grades but not only.
I'm only 4th Kyu but had weapon training a couple times.

 

[Tayski]

I would actually make the argument that the high kicks from close range are not to do with the pivot and to do with the way they're thrown, a lot of those high kicks are more like brazilian kicks (not all of course).
Case and point:
[YT]PznsciQkKc8[/YT]

I mean of course this is just a generalisation.

You're right, the high kicks from close range are more to do about rising the knee up properly and using the hip than it is about the pivot. The pivot is also important though, but if you mess up getting your knee up properly or do not make full use of the hip then the pivot is useless.

 

[shinkyoku]

well you think wrong
It's not very common or regular to train with weapons for Kyokushin guys you're right, but some organisations/dojos do have it as part of their Syllabus, usually for higher grades but not only.
I'm only 4th Kyu but had weapon training a couple times.

Some kyokushin organizations have weapon as a formal grading requirement (especially weapon kata), but it is usually a recent addition to the formal curriculum. In some groups, like Matsui

 

[shinkyoku]

. I don't think that it has anything to do with power since the low mawashi geri of the kyokushin fighters that I've seen are done with pivots on the heel.

No kyokushin or any related "knockdown" style fighter pivots on their heel in mawashi geri. Ever!

 

[AndyMaBobs]

There's a Daido Juku dojo in Slough: http://www.kudouk.com/kudo-training-venue.html
never been there though so can't tell you how good it is.

As somebody mentioned there's Shidokan in London: http://www.shidokan.org.uk/

Also since recently, Sensei Darren Stringer (3rd dan Kyokushin http://darrenstringer.com/) is giving "MMA Karate" lessons at easyGym in West Croydon. I haven't been to those classes yet but heard good feedback from one of my instructors, and I had the chance to train with Sensei Stringer a few times in the past and it was very technical and informative. Sempai Alan Shnawa assists him there
(https://www.facebook.com/alanjshnawa/info)

For actual Kyokushin, if you want a really tough dojo I recommend Bethnal Green dojo, with Shihan Graham Warden (6th dan) and Sempai Kenny Jarvis (2nd dan) as the main instructors. The dojo has had some great success in knockdown tournaments with names like Nick Da Costa (placed 6th at the World Tournament in 1984 when it was still only one united Kyokushin organisation), Darren Chan, Kenny Jarvis, and Timmy Warden (only ever Brit to win an IFK World Tournament).
It's my dojo (even though I haven't been able to train there for the last 2 months) and the toughest in London in my opinion, you will go home limping and bruised more than once ^^
If you're interested it's closed in August but back in September. The website is down at the moment but here's the Facebook page with address and training schedule: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bethnal-Green-Karate-Club/444352388999076?sk=info

Other dojos I tried and liked are Docklands dojo with Shihan Da Costa as main instructor (http://www.docklandsdojo.co.uk/), Tokei dojo in London Bridge (especially the fight club on Sunday morning which is basically 1 full hour of knockdown sparring), and Crystal Palace.

hope that helps

Wow, I had no idea a lot of this was here. I knew the bethnal green dojo (not too far from my muay thai gym) and Da Costa's dojo (again similar area, his ilford branch especially) and Azam recommended Tokei. I'm thinking of going to Tohyama dojo (if I've spelt his name correctly (The London Dojo as it's also known).

Have you been involved with Kyokushin for a long time?

 

[Tayski]

Wow, I had no idea a lot of this was here. I knew the bethnal green dojo (not too far from my muay thai gym) and Da Costa's dojo (again similar area, his ilford branch especially) and Azam recommended Tokei. I'm thinking of going to Tohyama dojo (if I've spelt his name correctly (The London Dojo as it's also known).

Have you been involved with Kyokushin for a long time?

Is your Muay Thai gym KO gyms by any chance?

"The London Dojo" is a lot more traditional and more attached to its Japanese roots than the other dojos, especially as it's managed by Japanese instructors. It also seems to be less tournament oriented and more family oriented, that's what I understand from their website and the feedback I've heard, but I could be wrong as I never been there myself

I haven't been involved with Kyokushin for a long time (about 2-3 years of training with some periods off, and participated in 1 knockdown tournament), but been involved with karate for a long time as I started with Shotokan when I was 13 and competed for a few years until I got to my late teens and got bored of it (especially the big emphasis on kihon and kata more than kumite in trainings).
When I discovered Kyokushin about 3 years ago I knew it was exactly what I had been looking for from Karate without knowing it existed. I was actually about to start Muay Thai then before that discovery

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Is your Muay Thai gym KO gyms by any chance?

"The London Dojo" is a lot more traditional and more attached to its Japanese roots than the other dojos, especially as it's managed by Japanese instructors. It also seems to be less tournament oriented and more family oriented, that's what I understand from their website and the feedback I've heard, but I could be wrong as I never been there myself

I haven't been involved with Kyokushin for a long time (about 2-3 years of training with some periods off, and participated in 1 knockdown tournament), but been involved with karate for a long time as I started with Shotokan when I was 13 and competed for a few years until I got to my late teens and got bored of it (especially the big emphasis on kihon and kata more than kumite in trainings).
When I discovered Kyokushin about 3 years ago I knew it was exactly what I had been looking for from Karate without knowing it existed. I was actually about to start Muay Thai then before that discovery

Y'see that would be quite interesting to me, because I like to learn the style based on tradition rather than competition, not that I wouldn't compete (and I feel that muay thai has left me fairly adept sparring) but I would like to go to the london dojo to see how they do it.

Nah, I'm not from KO, I'm from Diesel Gym. I found that KO weren't interested in you if you weren't a fighter, and sometimes the instructors would be too busy on their mobile phones than training. I train just in muay thai though, I like watching MMA and have a lot of respect and a decent knowledge of grappling, but I just don't enjoy it enough to commit myself to training it.

Did you find that kyokushin was as radically different from Shotokan as people say it is?
Hey you should still give muay thai a go if you ever get spare time or money, not to replace kyokushin but it's just a lot of fun to train!