Knee Stability, Shoulder Joint Strength

[Richmond_Hrvat]

So as you all know I play rugby. Whenever anyone questions the injuries in rugby, the answer they get is: "Knees, and shoulders... knees and shoulders..."

Whenever anyone asks me about MY injuries, the answer I give is: "Knees and shoulders..."

I have had:

Knee meniscus torn
Knee ligaments strained/torn
Shoulder Labrum torn (right and left)
AC joint separation

all in 1.5 years of rugby and 9 months of serious lifting. (I began really squatting and deadlifting in August.)

So, Sherdog S&P, give me diesel knees and shoulders. I am currently trying my best to recover from my AC separation so now is the best time for me to just sit and type. Forgive me.

When I'm recovered, my ideas are like this:

Shoulders:

Bench Press
SOHP
High Cable Row
BOR
Deadlifts
O Lifts
Pullups
External Rotation (Bandwork?)
Rear Delt Flyes
Lateral Raises
Shrugs
Neck Work


Knees:

Squats (what depth/weight for stability? I can only really squat with a wider stance. i've been told this is bad for knees, and sometimes my knees drift inward when I squat.)
Leg Press (high reps)
Weighted Barbell Lunges or Stepups
Pistols
Weighted Jumps
Sprints
LSD (running and acid)
Knees
Yolk Walks??? Barbell Walks?


So I've got some ideas of what to do, but I can't do everything. I don't know which are better. At this point I'm very happy with my strength, but my injury rate is getting annoying. I need stable, strong, WELL BALANCED, and diesel joints. Can those of you who have recovered from shoulder and knee surgeries/injuries or those who have done stability work give me some hints, separate the wheat from the chaff?

Sorry my ambitions change so much, but you guys like to solve my problems deep down, I think! :icon_chee:icon_chee:icon_chee:icon_chee:icon_chee:icon_chee

 

[magicman531]

I did chest expander cables for awhile. It helped heal my shoulder after I fucked it up doing pullups. Give it a go fo sho

 

[hollow]

Shoulder Savers (part 1 and 2 after the jump)

Knees

I haven't read those articles for a while, so I'm gonna guess they recommend using bands, isometric holds, and buying a product they are shilling. Might give you some good ideas as to what type of warm up exercises you should incorporate.

edit: probably not what you wanted, but still. prevention rather than rehabilitation right?.. right? *crickets*

 

[Richmond_Hrvat]

Prevention's a funny word when you're always injured. The longer you grappled, fight, play for, the more you come to understand that athletes in most sports are rarely if ever a real 100%. Everybody's working through something.

 

[Donut62]

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=761250&highlight=vastus+medialus

Check out the video series I posted in this thread for good pre-hab type exercises that will go a long way towards preventing imbalances and tracking issues around the knee. I've been doing the exercies in that video for over a year, in addition to starting to wear knee sleeves, and I have no knee pain or clicking despite squatting twice a week, doing judo, etc.

 

[Richmond_Hrvat]

1) Are parallel squats dangerous for your knees, as opposed to say, ATG squats? I've heard ATG is both bad for your knees OR better for them than quarter or parallel squats.

2) Sometimes under heavy load my knees shift inward when squatting. I am trying to correct this. Am I training instability into my knees?

 

[the_harbinger]

1) Are parallel squats dangerous for your knees, as opposed to say, ATG squats? I've heard ATG is both bad for your knees OR better for them than quarter or parallel squats.

2) Sometimes under heavy load my knees shift inward when squatting. I am trying to correct this. Am I training instability into my knees?

I'm not sure about the second question, but ATG squats are probably more save than parallel. However, that being said...most people can't do true ATG squats due to flexibility issues. So if you forcing yourself down too far when you're not flexible enough...it MIGHT become a problem.

I say just try aim for ATG and see what happens. For most people will have them end upa little below parallel...which is perfectly fine.

 

[PariahCarey]

Don't let your knees travel inwards...widestance squatting puts less stress on your knees and is better because your posterior chain gets involved...spread your knees out with your toes pointed out to some degree.

Get rid of the leg press and when you do lunges make sure your ass on the leg thats going forward is going back and your are sitting on the heels. I turn my lunges into 1 legged dynaminc squats...no knee trouble.

 

[Cap'n]

1) Are parallel squats dangerous for your knees, as opposed to say, ATG squats? I've heard ATG is both bad for your knees OR better for them than quarter or parallel squats.

Past parallel is better than not. When you go past parallel the hamstrings take over and there's less shear on the knee.

2) Sometimes under heavy load my knees shift inward when squatting. I am trying to correct this. Am I training instability into my knees?

You have weak groin muscles. Really focus on pushing your knees out. You can try wider squatting for a bit to correct this, or things like lunges.

 

[Richmond_Hrvat]

Great, thanks. Anyone else?

 

[Donut62]

Agree with what everyone else said, go as deep as you can and really focus on pushing the knees out.

 

[Richmond_Hrvat]

Past parallel is better than not. When you go past parallel the hamstrings take over and there's less shear on the knee.


You have weak groin muscles. Really focus on pushing your knees out. You can try wider squatting for a bit to correct this, or things like lunges.

I do squat relatively wide, it's just sometimes the knees travel in. What else builds up the old groin? Don't say it...

 

[Cap'n]

I do squat relatively wide, it's just sometimes the knees travel in. What else builds up the old groin? Don't say it...

Seriously just squatting more, really focusing on pushing the knees out. Squats are the best for strengthening the adductors. Try lunges as well, like I said before.

 

[Cap'n]

Or, you may be squatting too wide for your body type. Take the feet in just a few inches and try.

 

[takeahnase]

http://www.fortified-iron.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8662

 

[bacon]

I've been through PT a few times for my shoulders and it never helped much, but I've got a new guy working on me right now and I've seen a significant improvement over the past few weeks.

First thing he said was, "eliminate all pressing and pulling from your workouts unless it's done with your palms facing inward." He told me to get a set of rings and use them for pushups, pullups and rows. The rings allow you to use a neutral grip (palms facing in). He's got me doing static holds in several positions on the pushup, pullup and row, which are done after the working sets.

External rotation with a band is often recommended and I did it for years with no improvement, but my current PT has me doing them differently.

First, I place a towel or similar object (I use a big foam roller) between my upper arm and torso. The idea is to achieve about a 30 degree angle between your upper arm and body.

Second, position the band at a low angle so that when you pull it, the band makes about a 30 degree angle with the floor.

Third, turn your body (the side that won't be pulling the band) away from the band and make a 30 degree angle between your body and the band. My PT calls these "30-30-30 external rotations" for obvious reasons. I usually do 2-3 sets of 20 per arm. The range of motion doesn't need to be that big for these.

I don't really know the science behind these, but they seem to be more beneficial than the standard arm-at-side external rotations...at least for me anyways.

How's your posture? Are your shoulders internally roatated? An easy test is to stand up straight, but relaxed and look at your shoulder in relation to your collar bone. If your shoulder is further forward than your collar bone, they your shoulders are probably internally rotated. To fix this, try to maintain a 1:1 push-pull ratio in your workouts. "Y's T's and I's" will also help.

CW's "balanced fighter" article had some shoulder stuff in it and I've been working those into the rotation lately. Too early to tell if they're worth a damn, but we'll see.

One of the things that seems to help me during the day is just rolling my shoulders. Pull them back, then up, then forward, then down. Repeat several times daily. Stress and tension seems to find it's way to your neck and shoulders, so periodically relieving that tension is a good idea.

One last thing, try Cissus. It tastes like shit, but it seems to work.

Everything I listed was advised by my PT based on MY shoulder problems. You might have different issues altogether, so if you haven't already done so, find a PT or 2 and get a couple opinions.

Good luck

 

[Monger]

If your shoulder is further forward than your collar bone, they your shoulders are probably internally rotated. To fix this, try to maintain a 1:1 push-pull ratio in your workouts. "Y's T's and I's" will also help.

I'm very surprised that he doesn't recommend at least a 1:2 pushull ratio if you're trying to correct the problem. To me, keeping it 1:1 is only if a problem doesn't exist and you want to keep it that way.

Good stuff otherwise.

I think, in very general terms, scapular stability and positioning seems to be the forefront of shoulder health and rehab. Beyond that, you need to look at total body mobility... even issues in the hips can cause mechanical differences in the shoulder... and mechanical issues will eventually lead to injuries, pain, lack of mobility, lack of strength, etc...

Knee issues can be similar in terms of looking at the big picture. Mobility or other issues with the surrounding joints (hips, ankles) can lead to knee issues and vice versa. Doing a lot of single leg exercise variations will be more specific in terms of strengthening the knee.

 

[Richmond_Hrvat]

Thanks guys!

Bacon, when you say "shoulder" in terms of being in front or in line with the collar bone, at which point do you measure? Top of shoulder or front of shoulder? I have some muscle in the front of my shoulder that's in front of the collar bone, but the collar itself drifts a little back from the chest to the shoulder. Do you have a diagram for this measurement? =)

Also, how about dumbbell bench pressing for a couple of months, then switching to barbell for a week or two before attempting a max?

In the same vein, though, I don't think I can give up cleans/snatches...

@Monger: I have very, very, very, inflexible ankles and calves. If I can stretch the calf, then the foot hurts at the ankle to bend beyond a certain depth. This issue has been completely stoic in the face of my attacks against it.

 

[bacon]

I'm very surprised that he doesn't recommend at least a 1:2 pushull ratio if you're trying to correct the problem. To me, keeping it 1:1 is only if a problem doesn't exist and you want to keep it that way.

Good stuff otherwise.

I think, in very general terms, scapular stability and positioning seems to be the forefront of shoulder health and rehab. Beyond that, you need to look at total body mobility... even issues in the hips can cause mechanical differences in the shoulder... and mechanical issues will eventually lead to injuries, pain, lack of mobility, lack of strength, etc...

Knee issues can be similar in terms of looking at the big picture. Mobility or other issues with the surrounding joints (hips, ankles) can lead to knee issues and vice versa. Doing a lot of single leg exercise variations will be more specific in terms of strengthening the knee.

I don't have an internal rotation problem. If anything, I have the opposite. I haven't benched since the beginning of last year. My problem according to an azn PT named Doug, is mostly a stability problem.

 

[Richmond_Hrvat]

I should add that in hopes of taking advantage of the body's interconnectedness, I have started stretching everywhere else. Most notably the hamstrings and behind the knees.