Kim Couture wins by pretty slick choke

[Vector_X]

wow.... that's actually pretty fresh!

Anyone else do this before? I gotta try this. This might be a game changer when working from the backmount!

Seriously, any well known or even more experienced bjj guys in here use this??

I've given it a shot a couple of times and had it done to me a couple time. There is a purple belt at our gym that has freakishly long forearms and lets just say he loves his arm triangles, and brabo chokes.

The problem I've had hitting it is if the guy just has an all around big neck so when they really ball up I just have a tough time sinking it in. Against a guy my weight or just someone of an average build its a nice choke. The trick I've found is that it is kind of slow and you don't realize you're really hitting it so just be patient with it.

 

[Drew Foster]

okay thanks for the insight.. my subs are for lack of a better term, "sub par" :icon_chee so I don't know if this move would be something that would be a good idea for someone who has such a hard time finishing chokes in the first place, but the fact that such a high level player could get caught with it intrigues me. I'll drill it a few times and give it a shot if I have trouble finishing the rnc from the seat (99/100 I'll roll over and put em on their belly) but I'll give it a shot for fun.

If you have a hard time finishing chokes, do not start putting a lot of energy with this one. Even if you perfect the angles and pressures, it's not nearly as secure as either of the chokes it combines.

If you have trouble finishing the RNC and you are determined to do a choke, go under the armpit, let them fall back, and go belly down for the regular arm triangle. It's very successful in MMA, BJJ, and sub-wrestling. The move to the arm triangle off of back mount is tried and true, rock solid.

 

[Belatucadros]

just to chime back in, when it was done to me both arteries were definitely shut off

I'd have gone out for sure

 

[Uncle Skippy]

I am not trying to be rude, and people will tell you I'm the friendliest person ever, but you most definitely DO need to cut off both carotids for the Darce.

Drew,

I'm not one to get butt-hurt and defensive if somebody calls me on something I like a good active discussion and if I come out the other end of it learning something, then sweet.

There are 3 pressures needed to have a proper Darce: let's pretend a right armed.

1. Your right forearm cutting into their right carotid artery.
2. Your chest/shoulder against their shoulder, which cuts off their left carotid artery.
3. The support arm, the backstop of the arm triangle, which keeps their chin tucked low, pulling their head and neck down into the V

I agree without a doubt here.

You can finish the Darce/Brabo from top side, top half, off your side cloking in, from the mount, doesn't matter. As long as you have those three pressures, you will finish. You can lift your elbow, dip a shoulder, elbows together, spread your back, etc, etc, But you NEED those 3 pressures. You may finish someone with 2 out of the 3, but it's not good technique.

I agree as well. 2 out of 3 is not perfect or good technique. To make up for the loss of 1 pressure, you'd have to overcompensate with the other two pressures (more pressure on the carotid than what would normally be required, much more head pressure).

That's the grey area I was referring to in only needing 1 carotid.

Would I advocate doing it every time? No way. Never. Likelihood of finishing drops dramatically the loss of one of those.

You will never be able to go up against any good grappler and finish a head-and-arm choke or even blood choke by only cutting off one artery. They will not tap or go to sleep and they will escape.

I've unexpectedly landed single-carotid chokes with success when trying to use the attempt to parlay into a better position. I am a big guy though so I can admit that size may have played a role in finishing (overcompensating for loss of a pressure with strength). Then again, I am a single data point and my testimonial is not indicative of overall success of the technique.

I've talked to others about the single carotid choke but nobody had any thoughts on if it was good or bad. They've just said "choke both" which doesn't do it for me. I need to know why one isn't 'good enough' in certain situations.

Evidence tells us it is, being that it has only been done one time at the upper levels of competition as far as I know, and it was done by the current best no-gi grappler on the planet. It's very simple. If we actually saw this even on a SEMI-regular basis no one would be calling it garbage. I AM not saying it's garbage, but it is most certainly low percentage.

After rolling a bit and drilling into that position, I'll agree with the low percentage statement now. People turned themselves into the arm triangle. I rarely finished from the side (only once) and that required driving a knee into their hip for leverage.

Thanks for the discussion Drew!

 

[elbigsam]

I played around with this choke one day from back control. Maybe the full on back control is less than optimal, it certainly seems to work in the two examples we are discussing.

In the coture picture I take note that the head is being forced downward and the arm is being lifted up on the opposite side. My issue with finishing this sub previously was that the defense of pinning your elbow to your ribs and maintaining a straight neck worked very well. Maybe if you are significantly stronger than your opponent it helps to force it in.

 

[Jinzumkei]

That just looks like a crappy attempt of a RNC.

 

[Half Amazing]

First off, love your signature. Chris and Omar are my 2 favorite characters in TV , maybe even all of film history.

It does differ from place to place. Some people call the Darce/Brabo a reverse arm triangle. I call a reverse arm triangle the North/South choke with their arm in the choke. (I refuse to call it a RAT choke)

Since this move is so rare, I dunno if I;d even give it a name. It's just an arm triangle/Mata Leao combo to me.

Yeah that's the type of choke that I was talking about.

 

[Breadcutter]

I do agree it is the worst head-and-arm choke by default, both in terms of its ability to generate pressure and its structural support, but I am hesitant to call it garbage for 1 reason:

1. Marcelo Garcia got subbed with it. He's not gonna tap to a choke that isn't deep and strong. I would like to know if Braulio has a system that makes this work for him or f he just came up with it on the fly and had the arm length and strength to pull it off.

Shit, I may have to take back what I said. Braulio's body type gives him a tremendous amount of options with the length of his arms and legs. I can't see it by that video that was posted though. I'm going to keep an open mind on this one.

 

[beeran1]

I do agree it is the worst head-and-arm choke by default, both in terms of its ability to generate pressure and its structural support, but I am hesitant to call it garbage for 1 reason:

1. Marcelo Garcia got subbed with it. He's not gonna tap to a choke that isn't deep and strong. I would like to know if Braulio has a system that makes this work for him or f he just came up with it on the fly and had the arm length and strength to pull it off.

Really? Wow. I take back my previous comment, although it may have been influenced by the fact that it is Kim Couture pulling it off.

 

[Drew Foster]

Drew,

I'm not one to get butt-hurt and defensive if somebody calls me on something I like a good active discussion and if I come out the other end of it learning something, then sweet.

Yea man I'm too polite.

I agree without a doubt here.

Gracias

I agree as well. 2 out of 3 is not perfect or good technique. To make up for the loss of 1 pressure, you'd have to overcompensate with the other two pressures (more pressure on the carotid than what would normally be required, much more head pressure).

That's the grey area I was referring to in only needing 1 carotid.

Would I advocate doing it every time? No way. Never. Likelihood of finishing drops dramatically the loss of one of those.

We are in agreement here.




I've unexpectedly landed single-carotid chokes with success when trying to use the attempt to parlay into a better position. I am a big guy though so I can admit that size may have played a role in finishing (overcompensating for loss of a pressure with strength). Then again, I am a single data point and my testimonial is not indicative of overall success of the technique.

I've talked to others about the single carotid choke but nobody had any thoughts on if it was good or bad. They've just said "choke both" which doesn't do it for me. I need to know why one isn't 'good enough' in certain situations.

This is where I disagree. I'm assuming you are still referring to the Darce/Brabo. One may be "good enough" to get the tap. But I have two issues with this. One: Are we training just to get the tap? If your answer to that is yes, then there's nothing left to say. I can't really debate that. I know my answer is no. I am not learning techniques to be able to do them at 75% efficiency and still get the tap because I was stronger or they tapped due to pain, etc. Two: Who are we training to beat? If we are training to beat the best blue and purple belts in your gym then yea, catching one carotid may be fine also. But if you are training to one day be able to hang with the elite level black belts, you are NEVER EVER going to tap any of them with any arm triangle or leg triangle variation with only one carotid cut off. They won't go to sleep and they won't tap. They are just too good. I am YEARS away from this, but I am training to be able to one day beat a guy like Cobrinha or Braulio Estima. Will it ever happen? Most likely no. But that doesn't mean it can't be a goal, and if I train all my positions to work against Braulio, I will do well against everyone else along the way. I guess my point is, I don't wanna win with a Darce choke because my opponent made a mistake or tapped early or it just "hurt" his neck. I want him to tap because I'm choking him and taking his head off. I am not satisfied with closing half of a choke. Does it happen? of course. But I am not happy with it, and I will work to fix it.


After rolling a bit and drilling into that position, I'll agree with the low percentage statement now. People turned themselves into the arm triangle. I rarely finished from the side (only once) and that required driving a knee into their hip for leverage.

Thanks for the discussion Drew!

Response in red. THX for the discussion too!

 

[Falufalump]

If you have a hard time finishing chokes, do not start putting a lot of energy with this one. Even if you perfect the angles and pressures, it's not nearly as secure as either of the chokes it combines.

If you have trouble finishing the RNC and you are determined to do a choke, go under the armpit, let them fall back, and go belly down for the regular arm triangle. It's very successful in MMA, BJJ, and sub-wrestling. The move to the arm triangle off of back mount is tried and true, rock solid.

Drew you are a great poster! Anytime I read a thread you've contributed to, I feel like I'm learning, thanks! :-].

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Just a RNC with the arm in. Nothing radically new. I've been caught in it.

 

[nefti]

drew,
that's not the choke that drysdale got marcelo with. This is actually from the back where drysdale did it off a sprawl position (common).

 

[Gabicho]

The problem I've had hitting it is if the guy just has an all around big neck so when they really ball up I just have a tough time sinking it in. Against a guy my weight or just someone of an average build its a nice choke. The trick I've found is that it is kind of slow and you don't realize you're really hitting it so just be patient with it.

I have a big neck and a lot of people have trouble finishing chokes on me. What more experienced people tend to do to tap me, is switching to a hadaka-jime kind of grip instead of a triangle kind of grip. If they hit the right spot in the neck or trachea, it's an insta-tap.

 

[Uncle Skippy]

This is where I disagree. I'm assuming you are still referring to the Darce/Brabo. One may be "good enough" to get the tap. But I have two issues with this. One: Are we training just to get the tap? If your answer to that is yes, then there's nothing left to say.

Not just to get the tap but rather to understand the mechanism behind each technique. I'm rather OCD in my training and obsess on details. That may be contradictory to the discussion we are having ("what about 'good enough'?"), but I'm always trying to see submissions in the full spectrum of "perfect technique"/high-percentage/highly-efficient down to "what the hell was that?!?!"/no-percentage/arms-are-wasted-nice-job-meathead and how to adapt for everything in between.

I yearn for the day when my transitions don't feel like I'm 5 years old again and stomping through the rain in my muck boots.

I am not learning techniques to be able to do them at 75% efficiency and still get the tap because I was stronger or they tapped due to pain, etc.

(sorry for the big cut)I guess my point is, I don't wanna win with a Darce choke because my opponent made a mistake or tapped early or it just "hurt" his neck. I want him to tap because I'm choking him and taking his head off. I am not satisfied with closing half of a choke. Does it happen? of course. But I am not happy with it, and I will work to fix it.

Absolutely. I drill for perfection to be sure that I hit every angle/pressure/distance that needs to be hit for the submission to be finished as efficiently as possible (no space, proper angle, finish with core/large muscle groups).

For me, when things go awry, I'm still working to see how to salvage the existing submission (within reason) and how to transition to the next (knowing when to do it). If both carotids aren't cut off, I still find that finishing with one pinched off will still put them out and isn't a 'pain tap'. Heartrate is still reduced due to pressure on the carotid sinus/nerve. My experience is that you don't need both carotids closed off to put them to sleep.

Of course my goal isn't to only attack a single side, but at the same time I believe it is important to drill that situation to attempt the finish or turn it into a transition to a higher-percentage finish.

 

[Drew Foster]

Drew you are a great poster! Anytime I read a thread you've contributed to, I feel like I'm learning, thanks! :-].

I've gotten this a lot, and it's really interesting, because I'm visiting 50/50, and I am not that good. Seriously. Big wake up call. Not even for my experience level. This is my second day spending 10+ hours on the mat and everyone here is trashing me. I'm realizing that there is a BIG gap between what I know and what I am able to perform. I always knew I was good at understanding concepts and explaining things, because I've been writing and teaching people Judo/Ninjutsu/etc plus non-martial arts things for a long time. I'm good with people too, and most people find me to be nice to be around.

BUT I have been posting less because I'm really figuring out that even though it may not seem like it, I don't know as much as it looks like, or if I know it, I can't necessarily make my body do it. I don't know if you ever heard BJ Penn say he got to a point where he could envision himself doing these technically perfect movements and combinations, but he couldn't actually do them, so he decided to just spend hours and hours everyday training until he could do it. Yes, he's a natural, but he still spent a shitload of time training. I'm in that phase where I would like to do what I've done these past 2 days everyday, but unfortunately, I need to finish school first. But I would agree that no matter how good I get or don't get at competitions, and whether I teach martial arts or not, I will most likely teach something valuable to someone in my lifetime.

 

[FirstNobleTruth]

Drew - I know exactly what you're talking about. I've been training for a good amount of time (4+ years), but due to injuries/school, am still a blue belt with a loooong way to go. But between helping teach children's classes and spending a lot of time around the sport, I have a semi-decent ability to break down concepts and help others. I always joke about how my "theoretical jiu-jitsu" is far superior to my actual jiu-jitsu.

 

[Drew Foster]

Not just to get the tap but rather to understand the mechanism behind each technique. I'm rather OCD in my training and obsess on details. That may be contradictory to the discussion we are having ("what about 'good enough'?"), but I'm always trying to see submissions in the full spectrum of "perfect technique"/high-percentage/highly-efficient down to "what the hell was that?!?!"/no-percentage/arms-are-wasted-nice-job-meathead and how to adapt for everything in between.

I yearn for the day when my transitions don't feel like I'm 5 years old again and stomping through the rain in my muck boots.



Absolutely. I drill for perfection to be sure that I hit every angle/pressure/distance that needs to be hit for the submission to be finished as efficiently as possible (no space, proper angle, finish with core/large muscle groups).

For me, when things go awry, I'm still working to see how to salvage the existing submission (within reason) and how to transition to the next (knowing when to do it). If both carotids aren't cut off, I still find that finishing with one pinched off will still put them out and isn't a 'pain tap'. Heartrate is still reduced due to pressure on the carotid sinus/nerve. My experience is that you don't need both carotids closed off to put them to sleep.

Of course my goal isn't to only attack a single side, but at the same time I believe it is important to drill that situation to attempt the finish or turn it into a transition to a higher-percentage finish.

Can't disagree with any of this. You don't always "need" to pinch both arteries to put them to sleep, but if they're Cobrinha (you'll see why I'm using this example in a sec) it probably won't hurt enough to get the tap, and your arms may burn out before he goes out.

I'm using this example because of the Anacondas done by Rafael Mendes at ADCC '09. Cobrinha has said the 1st one was tighter, although the second one looked to be to me, since it was on longer and the ref checked to see of Cobrinha was out. But, there's no question that for at least a few seconds in both of those chokes, at least one carotid was closed, plus Rafa was tearing his head off with the pressure. Justin Rader doesn't tap easily to chokes, and Rafa got him with the Anaconda. I used to think it was fairly easy to choke people, and it can be, and although I know it isn't black belt magic, those dudes are not easy to choke out. I have gotten plenty of people to tap with just one side blocked, but I am not completely satisfied with that.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Are you sure the arm is in?

 

[Drew Foster]

drew,
that's not the choke that drysdale got marcelo with. This is actually from the back where drysdale did it off a sprawl position (common).

I was pretty sure I typed Braulio Estima. I linked the match one the first page. Drysdale did a Brabo/Darce sprawling off Marcelo's single leg.

Maybe you disagree, but I wouldn't really call the Braulio/Kim choke a Darce.