Kim Couture wins by pretty slick choke

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Tony Manifold, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. Tony Manifold

    Tony Manifold Brown Belt

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    I am not a Kim Couture fan by any stretch of the imagination but she won a fight this weekend with a "Reverse Arm triangle". Judging by the picture it is pretty slick. I don't think I have ever seen this before.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. wildman1717

    wildman1717 Green Belt

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    Glad to see her get a win, she was on a bad streak for awhile.
     
  3. Half Amazing

    Half Amazing Blue Belt

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    I'm sure its one of those things that differs from place to place, but a reverse arm triangle to me is like an arm triangle from the north-south position.
     
  4. fourfif**

    fourfif** Banned Banned

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    wow.... that's actually pretty fresh!

    Anyone else do this before? I gotta try this. This might be a game changer when working from the backmount!

    Seriously, any well known or even more experienced bjj guys in here use this??
     
  5. Belatucadros

    Belatucadros Brown Belt

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    I had this done to my once by a brown belt

    but he did pretty much whatever he wanted to me
     
  6. Breadcutter

    Breadcutter Yellow Belt

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    It's a garbage move. If she finished the girl from there, the girl wanted to quit. Take a second look at the picture, think about the simplistic dynamics of a choke and figure out what's wrong with this picture. With Kim's positioning, there's no way to apply an adequate amount of pressure to the girl's right arm to squeeze it from that angle.
     
  7. Goat Meal

    Goat Meal Shhh Belt

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    Pretty much what I was thinking.
     
  8. beeran1

    beeran1 Purple Belt

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    Yep, BS.
     
  9. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    If you watch the ADCC 2009 Absolute division Braulio Estima taps Marcelo Garcia with this move.

    I have yet to be able to get the pressure right, and I would prefer to switch to a regular arm triangle by flattening out or swimming the arms for a RNC.

    You have to have very long arms to get this one to work, and mechanically there is not a lot you can do to finish the choke without having to use a heavy squeeze. You can't completely stop the neck from moving like you can in a RNC either. They have some wriggle room and the only way to press the shoulder into the carotid is the use your bicep. With other head-and-arms like the arm triangle or a Darce you have a solid backstop on the shoulder (your own shoulder/head and your chest, respectively for those two chokes.) Your bicep isn't the most stable backstop, nor is it as heavy as your shoulder or chest.

    Looks cool, but it will never be something I will use a lot unless I have a big revelation about body mechanics one day that makes me realize I'm missing something.
     
  10. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    I do agree it is the worst head-and-arm choke by default, both in terms of its ability to generate pressure and its structural support, but I am hesitant to call it garbage for 1 reason:

    1. Marcelo Garcia got subbed with it. He's not gonna tap to a choke that isn't deep and strong. I would like to know if Braulio has a system that makes this work for him or f he just came up with it on the fly and had the arm length and strength to pull it off.
     
  11. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    First off, love your signature. Chris and Omar are my 2 favorite characters in TV , maybe even all of film history.

    It does differ from place to place. Some people call the Darce/Brabo a reverse arm triangle. I call a reverse arm triangle the North/South choke with their arm in the choke. (I refuse to call it a RAT choke)

    Since this move is so rare, I dunno if I;d even give it a name. It's just an arm triangle/Mata Leao combo to me.
     
  12. mrpopenfresh

    mrpopenfresh Red Belt

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    SO this is basically a RNC with the arm in?
     
  13. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    Yes it's just a Mata Leo with the choking arm going under the armpit and across the chest before it cuts across the neck.

    I'll try to find a pic of Braulio subbing Marcelo with it.

    Watch this at 6:42 even though you can't really see it that well.
    ADCC 2009
     
  14. Cynic

    Cynic Shugendo

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    Also Jacare has won a MMA fight by this move, I think it was in brazil, jungle fight maybe.
     
  15. Bullheaded

    Bullheaded Green Belt

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    I was taught to transition to a reverse triangle from there, or to switch to an armbar. Interesting to see you can tap someone with this, it looks really tight.
     
  16. Uncle Skippy

    Uncle Skippy White Belt

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    Actually with her positioning (perpendicular to the right shoulder), she gets adequate leverage and angle to pull her right forearm into the neck while using her other arm to add extra leverage by pushing the head away.

    The mechanics are the same as the Darce/Brabo. You aren't trying to drive the shoulder down into the neck but rather you are pulling your arm up into their neck. You don't need to choke off both sides.

    When done in the position that Kim is in, the problem would be in the girl simply spinning out of it counter-clockwise. Left foot posted to the left hip or get your right hook in to prevent the escape. If she spins the other way (clockwise), she turns right into a very deep arm triangle.

    Garbage move? Not really.

    Low percentage? Only when you give them the easy escape.
     
  17. fourfif**

    fourfif** Banned Banned

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    okay thanks for the insight.. my subs are for lack of a better term, "sub par" :icon_chee so I don't know if this move would be something that would be a good idea for someone who has such a hard time finishing chokes in the first place, but the fact that such a high level player could get caught with it intrigues me. I'll drill it a few times and give it a shot if I have trouble finishing the rnc from the seat (99/100 I'll roll over and put em on their belly) but I'll give it a shot for fun.
     
  18. Gregolian

    Gregolian .45 ACP Platinum Member

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    Why is it that I look at that pic and feel like it's something I saw in the WWE like 10 years ago when I was still in elementary school?
     
  19. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    I am not trying to be rude, and people will tell you I'm the friendliest person ever, but you most definitely DO need to cut off both carotids for the Darce.

    There are 3 pressures needed to have a proper Darce: let's pretend a right armed.

    1. Your right forearm cutting into their right carotid artery.
    2. Your chest/shoulder against their shoulder, which cuts off their left carotid artery.
    3. The support arm, the backstop of the arm triangle, which keeps their chin tucked low, pulling their head and neck down into the V

    You can finish the Darce/Brabo from top side, top half, off your side cloking in, from the mount, doesn't matter. As long as you have those three pressures, you will finish. You can lift your elbow, dip a shoulder, elbows together, spread your back, etc, etc, But you NEED those 3 pressures. You may finish someone with 2 out of the 3, but it's not good technique.

    I could go through lists of the needed pressures with every head-and-arm variation: Anaconda, arm triangle, reverse arm triangle, Peruvian necktie, and so on, but you get the point.

    You will never be able to go up against any good grappler and finish a head-and-arm choke or even blood choke by only cutting off one artery. They will not tap or go to sleep and they will escape.

    Back to the move in question: It may not be garbage, but it IS low percentage. Evidence tells us it is, being that it has only been done one time at the upper levels of competition as far as I know, and it was done by the current best no-gi grappler on the planet. It's very simple. If we actually saw this even on a SEMI-regular basis no one would be calling it garbage. I AM not saying it's garbage, but it is most certainly low percentage.
     
  20. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    There's nothing reverse about it, this is a standard arm triangle, just at a slightly off angle.
     

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