Kentucky Derby...and Beyond?

Without naming any names, who would you people rather bet if you could only choose one?

Horse A who has the tactical speed to get good early position on a track and under conditions that should favour it`s style, has a great pattern for future improvement, and has won 4 of 5 (hit the board in all) with 2 of those wins coming in stakes races, including a stakes win in it`s last race where he's one of only two horses in the field coming into the Preakness to do so?

Or...

Horse B who is a one paced plodder with an ugly regressive pattern, who`s likely up against it from a pace, track, and condition standpoint, and who is but 1 for 9 during it`s racing career so far with just a maiden win to it`s credit?

And what if I tell you that you`ll be offered at least double, maybe triple the odds on Horse A?

i.e. A horse that is a proven winner should always be respected, and is always worth a second look regardless of what the competition looks like. Especially when it`s only one of two in the field to have won it`s last race and will go off at huge odds.
 
Without naming any names, who would you people rather bet if you could only choose one?

Horse A who has the tactical speed to get good early position on a track and under conditions that should favour it`s style, has a great pattern for future improvement, and has won 4 of 5 (hit the board in all) with 2 of those wins coming in stakes races, including a stakes win in it`s last race where he's one of only two horses in the field coming into the Preakness to do so?

Or...

Horse B who is a one paced plodder with an ugly regressive pattern, who`s likely up against it from a pace, track, and condition standpoint, and who is but 1 for 9 during it`s racing career so far with just a maiden win to it`s credit?

And what if I tell you that you`ll be offered at least double, maybe triple the odds on Horse A?

i.e. A horse that is a proven winner should always be respected, and is always worth a second look regardless of what the competition looks like. Especially when it`s only one of two in the field to have won it`s last race and will go off at huge odds.

I assume horse A is Diamond King and horse B is Lone Sailor?

Based on the points that you and @ImNotSurpisedDonks! have made, I'm definitely going to be changing what I came up with initially. With so many horses very close on the numbers I'm torn on how to play it.

I'm thinking now maybe Justify over Quip, Diamond King, Bravazo in exactas and tris. I'd like to include Tenfold there too but I feel like I shouldn't spread myself out too much with a smallish field like this.
 
I assume horse A is Diamond King and horse B is Lone Sailor?

Based on the points that you and @ImNotSurpisedDonks! have made, I'm definitely going to be changing what I came up with initially. With so many horses very close on the numbers I'm torn on how to play it.

I'm thinking now maybe Justify over Quip, Diamond King, Bravazo in exactas and tris. I'd like to include Tenfold there too but I feel like I shouldn't spread myself out too much with a smallish field like this.

You could also wait to see what the board says when it comes to exacta payouts, T, if you're having trouble singling out a couple of horses. You might see something then that offers what you see as value, you know. Plenty of hours left to make a decision on how to play the race. I'm not sure what the numbers say on the version of the formula your using, but on mine I have Diamond King, Bravazo, Quip, and Tenfold all lumped up within 15 points of each other (and in that order behind the top two), and then Lone Sailor not too far behind them. Sporting Chance brings up the rear and maybe be the only one not worth much consideration.

I`m actually thinking about passing on the race for the most part besides maybe a couple of small $5 recreational bets just for rooting interests. If this was race 5 at Gulfstream for an example, and the PP`s looked the same, I wouldn`t even bother betting it. The only reason I`d consider betting it is because it`s the Preakness and I`m basically forcing myself to come up with some plays just because. I may just play a $5 straight exacta with Justify over Diamond Kingas since that is the result I`d prefer for value reasons if I played exactas. Then maybe make a $5 win on Diamond King just in case, you know, `shit happens` with Justify at some point during the race. I really just don`t feel like investing a whole lot into this race and trying to force it to be honest. I`m more interested in watching the Preakness today as a fan. But there are other races today that I`m quite a bit more interested in betting.

And yeah. Those were the two horses.
 
@t6p

With a betting pool this size the exacta will pays shouldn't change much, if even at all, once the race before the Preakness is made official, so you should have plenty of time to run the math in your head and come up with the best way to maximize your value in the exacta.
 
The guy says he's charging $27 yet recommends an $88 win bet on Justify and then a $0.50 trifecta box with Justify, Good Magic, Lone Sailor and Bravazo.

If Justify does win this guy is looking at about a $100 return on the win bet, and he'll be lucky if the 50 cent trifecta pays $5 or so if Good Magic does finish 2nd. Risk $100 for a $105-$110 return, and he's only gonna charge $27 for that kind of betting advice.

I mean, yeah, it has to be a joke right? Has to be.
 
The guy says he's charging $27 yet recommends an $88 win bet on Justify and then a $0.50 trifecta box with Justify, Good Magic, Lone Sailor and Bravazo.

If Justify does win this guy is looking at about a $100 return on the win bet, and he'll be lucky if the 50 cent trifecta pays $5 or so if Good Magic does finish 2nd. Risk $100 for a $105-$110 return, and he's only gonna charge $27 for that kind of betting advice.

I mean, yeah, it has to be a joke right? Has to be.
Holy S, have you seen the line playage?!?! Justify is even, Tenfold is at a MINDBLOWING 2-1, Quip is 7-2 and Good Magic is 9-1! WTF happened over night??

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-ra...affect-pimlico-on-preakness-day#disqus_thread
 
Holy S, have you seen the line playage?!?! Justify is even, Tenfold is at a MINDBLOWING 2-1, Quip is 7-2 and Good Magic is 9-1! WTF happened over night??

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-ra...affect-pimlico-on-preakness-day#disqus_thread

That's way early in the betting, my friend. This race usually has in the neighborhood of $75 million in total bet into it, so odds at the $400k mark is only a small tiny fraction of the what the pool will be. The Black Eyed Susan-Preakness will pays should give you a much better idea of where the money is going and what the approximate odds will be come post time.
 
That's what this game is about and how you can get paid if you're correct. Finding a reason to dislike a horse that most people betting into the pool are going to like to hit the board. Good Magic will probably be on 40%-50% of people's exacta tickets and 80% of the trifecta plays, so if you can beat him out of the top 2 or 3 you're going to get paid in a nice way provided you're correct with your observation of him.

I also think there's a decent enough chance that Good Magic got demoralized when trying to race against Justify in the Derby. Maybe not more likely than not considering Good Magic has responded well to defeats before. But a decent enough chance. Good Magic is/was an alpha horse, but he found Justify was more alpha, and that could mean that when Good Magic's jockey asks him to attack Justify on the far turn the response might be that he backs down instead of trying to compete. Going into the Derby I thought there was a chance that Bolt d'Oro got demoralized by Justify in the Santa Anita Derby as there was one particular moment in that race where I saw Bolt concede leadership to Justify (Justify veered in towards Bolt in that race and Bolt backed down instantly). When it came to the Kentucky Derby Bolt didn't want any part of Justify around the turn when his jockey asked Bolt to go after him, and Bolt once again conceded to Justify before fading badly in the stretch. If you rewatch the Derby there was a moment during the race about 3/16ths from the wire where Good Magic, while being asked to take on Justify in the stretch, turned his head outwards like he was trying to get away from the big horse. It may have been nothing and it was simply Good Magic getting tired, and probably was. But there's also a decent enough chance that it could have also been a sign of Good Magic conceding leadership to Justify. If it was then we'll probably see the same thing happen to Good Magic that happened to Bolt d'Oro in the Derby. His jockey asks him around the far turn, Good Magic has no response because he already knows Justify is the superior to him, and he fades badly down the stretch in finishing off the board.

That's the stance I'm going to take tomorrow when it comes to the race just because, while it may not be the case, I think there's a much better chance that Good Magic got demoralized in the Derby than what the odds will indicate. We have to gamble sometimes, right? We have to measure our probabilities against what the public's probabilities are and see if we can find some value. I'm not interested in a 3/1 exacta myself. I'd rather try for a 25/1 or maybe even a 50/1 exacta by keying Justify on top of some longshots. The public will bet it like a 90/10 probability whereas I think the chances that Good Magic was demoralized is much higher than 10%. Maybe somewhere in the 30% or 40% range. So I owe it to myself to play the race that way.

You also have to consider that Good Magic isn't in this race to run 2nd again. He's the one horse in this race besides Justify that you know that the connections are in it to try to win it. Most of these horses who are in this race will have connections that will be tickled pink if they run 2nd, and some will even be ridden with the intentions to run 2nd. Good Magic's people aren't. They're going to try to win it and they'll ask the horse to take on Justify at some point in the race. So even if Good Magic wasn't demoralized by Justify last time out there's a very real chance that Justify repels Good Magic's challenge and causes him to fade again in the stretch thus opening the race up for a longer priced horse to round out the exacta.

So whether it be from a herd dynamics standpoint or one from race dynamics, I think the play for this race has to be to try to beat Good Magic out of the exacta at least. He is the 2nd best horse in the race going in. No doubt about it. But based on the above couple of points I'm trying to make I don't think his chances to run 2nd are all that much greater than other horses in the race when everything is considered. Certainly not 5, 10 or 15 times greater as the exacta payouts would have you believe. That's where the value is in this race I do believe.

I'm probably going to play this race like a 1x3 exacta with no Good Magic, and then maybe do a 1x3x4 trifecta by including Good Magic in 3rd only for some defensive purposes. A Justify over Good Magic isn't worth it. A Justify over Good Magic over someone else in the trifecta probably isn't much worth it either.
That's exactly what I was thinking Shark, but now with GM going overnight from 3-1 to 9-1, I'm almost salivating at the possibility of a tri play including him, possibly Justy/GM/Bravazo or subbing Bravazo for Lone Sailor and Quip. I saw just a portion of the workouts yesterday, but Im really wondering if someone knows something that I/we don't, in order for Tenfold to go from 20-1 to 2-1 overnight......I mean Tenfold has a great pedigree, with Curlin on top and a Tapit mare on the bottom, but it still does not add up to me.

Things just got really interesting in a short amount of time. If Tenfold beats Justify, I will be utterly shocked.

Getting amped for post time!
 
Haha, after watching this at least I can say with certainty that I'm not the worst horse racing bettor in the world.

Isn't that ridiculous, T? The funny thing is he seems all giddy about it too. Or maybe that that is a sad thing. I don't know. Actually, what would be sad if someone out there paid money for that kind of betting advice.
 
That's exactly what I was thinking Shark, but now with GM going overnight from 3-1 to 9-1, I'm almost salivating at the possibility of a tri play including him, possibly Justy/GM/Bravazo or subbing Bravazo for Lone Sailor and Quip. I saw just a portion of the workouts yesterday, but Im really wondering if someone knows something that I/we don't, in order for Tenfold to go from 20-1 to 2-1 overnight......I mean Tenfold has a great pedigree, with Curlin on top and a Tapit mare on the bottom, but it still does not add up to me.

Things just got really interesting in a short amount of time. If Tenfold beats Justify, I will be utterly shocked.

Getting amped for post time!

Don't read anything into those early odds, bud. I saw those yesterday evening at some point. Way early. I gave you some updated odds, but even then, don't read too much into those yet either. The pool is still way small compared to what it will be come post time.
 
@ImNotSurpisedDonks!

Most recent odds listings as of a half hour ago;

1. Quip 10-1

2. Lone Sailor 11-1

3. Sporting Chance 20-1

4. Diamond King 15-1

5. Good Magic 5-1

6. Tenfold 21-1

7. Justify 2-5

8. Bravazo 12-1

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp...odds-with-less-than-1526741630-htmlstory.html

Bizarre, I wonder where Bloodhorse is getting their odds from?

"Other than the weather, the backstretch buzz was with the early odds, based on a pool of just more than $400,000 May 18. Predictably, Justify was at even-money, but was followed by the Steve Asmussen-trained Tenfold at 2-1, with Derby runner-up Good Magic at 9-1. Other early odds were Quip, 7-2; Lone Sailor, 30-1; Sporting Chance, 19-1; Diamond King, 70-1; and Bravazo, 19-1."


There has to be a typo. No way Tenfold can be 2-1 and GM at 9-1.
 
Bizarre, I wonder where Bloodhorse is getting their odds from?

"Other than the weather, the backstretch buzz was with the early odds, based on a pool of just more than $400,000 May 18. Predictably, Justify was at even-money, but was followed by the Steve Asmussen-trained Tenfold at 2-1, with Derby runner-up Good Magic at 9-1. Other early odds were Quip, 7-2; Lone Sailor, 30-1; Sporting Chance, 19-1; Diamond King, 70-1; and Bravazo, 19-1."


There has to be a typo. No way Tenfold can be 2-1 and GM at 9-1.

Those were from yesterday evening right after the Pimlico card ended yesterday. A lot of sites were reporting the early odds at that time, so there was no mistake from Bloodhorse. Just way, way too early in the betting to glean anything from, though.
 
@ImNotSurpisedDonks!

Some owners like to bet their horses every time they run. Some owners don't. And sometimes those owners like to get their bet out of the way as soon as the pools open just so they don't have to worry about it anymore. My advice is don't even look at the odds yet, but if you do then look at the Black Eyed Susan-Preakness will pays. Those aren't going to change at all since one of the races has already been ran.

Justify - $13.20
Good Magic - $48.80
Quip - $131.80
Bravazo - $147.80
Lone Sailor - $155.20
Tenfold - $255.80
Diamond King - $405.60
Sporting Chance $434.20

https://www.forbes.com/sites/teresa...-susan-preakness-2018-will-pays/#50d4da2bca21

That'll give you a better idea on where the money is going to go since that pool is obviously closed already. Justify will be the clear favourite. Good Magic will be the clear 2nd choice. Quip, Bravazo, and Lone Sailor very likely vie for 3rd choice. Either Diamond King or Sporting Chance will be the longest shot on the board.
 
Is this a joke?

His plays at the 3:20 mark.



I seriously can't believe how retarded these plays are. He's taking a 1/5 horse in Justify and basically turning him into a 1/10 shot. And if his two bombs do come through in his trifecta box he's completely killed the payoff by investing so much of his bankroll into his win bet on Justify. This is so friggin dumb. And he's trying to sell this type of advice. But hey, I'd be the first to welcome him to the pools if I ever saw him.
 
@BluntTrauma21's 3 horse exacta box in a 4 horse race doesn't seem so bad in comparison now.
I don't remember this but it definitely sounds like me lol. This race looks like a rough one to cap.

I say maybe a nice 6 horse exacta box maybe? Your sharp analysis of the day, courtesy of your boy, Blunttrauma21.
 

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