Kentucky Derby...and Beyond?

@Sharkey

Here are my highly non-technical plays, which absolutely no one should consider tailing, that I'm thinking about going with for the Preakness.

Justify / Good Magic, Diamond King, Lone Sailor
Justify / Good Magic, Diamond King, Lone Sailor / Good Magic, Diamond King, Lone Sailor

Okay if you're that adament about it, T. Haha. Nah, I like you're first three horses enough, especially the gutsy and hard trying Diamond King as the longshot to include. I'll try to find my own alternative to Lone Sailor, though. And I won't play that Justify over Good Magic exacta either.
 
I don't know what his sheet looks like, but one of these runners in the Preakness that a lot of people are going to be playing underneath looks to have an ugly 0-2-X pattern based on his Beyers and Brisnet figures. And coming in on only two weeks rest is going to make it that much harder to avoid an X race.

@t6p

This post of mine was in reference to Lone Sailor if you didn't know. Not that I'm trying to talk you off of him or anything because he's going to be a price and could certainly hit the board. I personally just have to look elsewhere when it comes to a horse that has a pattern that says he's more likely than not going to produce an X race.
 
Numbers for the G3 Pimlico Special taking place in the slop about an hour from now (race 9 at Pimlico);

==========

G3 Pimlico Special (Race 9 at Pimlico);

#8 Something Awesome 5/1 - 514.9
#2 One Liner 7/2 - 500.9
#7 Afleet Willy 10/1 - 498.4
#9 Untrapped 10/1 - 497.8
#5 Hedge Fund 7/2 - 473.6
#4 Discreet Lover 20/1 - 455.7
#3 Rated R Superstar 8/1 - 449.1
#1 Irish War Cry 3/1 - 437.7

==========

How can I not bet a race that involves the fragile minded money burner that is Irish War Cry? Especially when he draws the rail over a sloppy track and figures to get muck kicked all over him unless he guns to the lead. Not that he's the worst horse in this race mind you despite what the numbers say. He's a contender if he shows up with his best race. But he is the worst bet in the race at the odds he figures to go off at. He's winless in his last 6 races and has only hit the board in 2 of them despite going off at odds of 5/2 or lower in 4 of them, and no higher than 6/1. Today is his day, though, right? Haha. Well, maybe it is.

#8 Something Awesome to win for me at anything around 3/1 or better, and then keying him over the #2, #7, and #9 in exactas ($5 each) and trifectas ($2 each). Thought about boxing the top four on the numbers in the trifecta just because the advantage isn't that big, but I'm going to narrow it down since Something Awesome came through for me in a big way his last race when he won the Charles Town Classic at 9/1. He's also as consistent as they come having ran Brisnet figures between 97 and 101 in each of his last 6 races, with 5 wins and a 3rd (beaten less than a length) in that span. He's in tremendous form right now. He's also as adaptable with his running style as anybody in this field as well (moreso really) He's won while sitting up close/on the lead through fast than average fractions as he did in his start two back. And he's won while having to overcome a soft early pace by the front runners while sitting off the pace as he did in his last race. He also runs just fine over an off track having won his only two races over a sloppy track in the last 6 months despite having to go way wide around the turn in each of them. Oh, and he's Canadian, so you know he's going to show class out there and not poop all over the track unlike the vulgar American horses. At 5/1 on the morning line what's not to like?

I'm at work and kinda bored so I tailed this. Took #8 to win/place/show. Then did exacta and trifecta boxes with 2, 7, 9. Hopefully Irish War Cry flakes LOL. Let's get it Sharkey.
 
I'm at work and kinda bored so I tailed this. Took #8 to win/place/show. Then did exacta and trifecta boxes with 2, 7, 9. Hopefully Irish War Cry flakes LOL. Let's get it Sharkey.

Best of luck, bud.
 
@t6p

This post of mine was in reference to Lone Sailor if you didn't know. Not that I'm trying to talk you off of him or anything because he's going to be a price and could certainly hit the board. I personally just have to look elsewhere when it comes to a horse that has a pattern that says he's more likely than not going to produce an X race.

Ah crap, haha. I saw that post yesterday and completely forgot about it this morning when I was looking at the race. I'll have to re-evaluate. Thanks for the reminder bud, I'm an idiot.
 
i did lots of diff exacta combos, justify with Bravazo lone sailor quip and tenfold. Tri is justify quip good magic. Other exactas Good magic with quip good magic with Bravazo. 2 super lottery tickets 7,1,6,8 and 5,8,7,2
 
I originally picked diamond king in a exacta and threw him out Hopefully I won’t regret that
 
@t6p

This post of mine was in reference to Lone Sailor if you didn't know. Not that I'm trying to talk you off of him or anything because he's going to be a price and could certainly hit the board. I personally just have to look elsewhere when it comes to a horse that has a pattern that says he's more likely than not going to produce an X race.

Lone Sailor's combined BSF/BRIS ratings through his career so far;

57-85-76-81-77-76.5-80.5-97.5-91

The 97.5 was a big new top for him or the "0" race in the pattern. The 91 he got in the Derby was a slight regression off of his big new top that he had his previous race thus that's the "2" in the pattern. If the 0-2-X pattern holds he's got another regression coming up and possibly a big one.

A horse needs a certain numbers of starts in his career before the pattern becomes a thing, though. I think it's either 6 or 8. But Lone Sailor has it no matter since this will be his 10th race coming up.
 
Ah crap, haha. I saw that post yesterday and completely forgot about it this morning when I was looking at the race. I'll have to re-evaluate. Thanks for the reminder bud, I'm an idiot.

It's not a sure thing he's going to regress, T. The price you get on him may make it worth the gamble. I was really just giving a little bit of my reasoning why I'm going to look elsewhere, that's all.
 
@mkess101 must be pulling out the big bucks this race seeing as how our #8 horse opened at 2/1. I'm gonna need better than that.
 
Judging by the daily double and pick 3 will pays One liner should go off as the lukewarm favourite with Something Awesome, Irish War Cry, and Hedge Fund all going off at a similar price.
 
@mkess101 must be pulling out the big bucks this race seeing as how our #8 horse opened at 2/1. I'm gonna need better than that.

Nah I invested peanuts. Something to kill some time since you do all this homework and have been on a pretty nice run lately. Wish odds were better but if I win anything I'll be happy.
 
Nah I invested peanuts. Something to kill some time since you do all this homework and have been on a pretty nice run lately. Wish odds were better but if I win anything I'll be happy.

That's the way to play these, Mike. Bet a little to try to win a lot. I was just poking fun anyways. Usually I reserve that terrible joke of mine for @t6p. Good luck.
 
What a clown show that was. My top ranked horse finished last, and my last ranked horse finished 1st.
 
What a clown show that was. My top ranked horse finished last, and my last ranked horse finished 1st.
Quick update, Shark and @t6p:

Good Magic had a freakout today in his workout. I threw out Mendy of my KD picks owing to how he looked in his prelim workout. Not only was GM sweaty this week like Mendy was, but at the end of the ride today when he met up with the pony, he reared, bucked and almost threw the excercise rider. If you remember Mendy also got a little out of control at the end of his KD workout.

GM looked great in his KD workouts but just seems to be a bit off to me. I think Im throwing him out of my tri based on that. It will be interesting to see how things play out tomorrow, as he is definitely the second best horse in the field but something seems off to me.

I don't know much about betting but I know horses as that is what I do - train riding horses. He could recover, but to me, that is a bad sign just 24 hours away from the race. Food for thought
 
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I originally picked diamond king in a exacta and threw him out Hopefully I won’t regret that
I doubt you will. He is the one horse that does not seem to deserve to be there to me. Obviously anything can happen, but he just seems to be a different class of runner than the KD horses and others like Quip.

I heard an interesting stat today: Good Magic's best Beyers have not been as good as Justify's worst. That is crazy considering GM was 2 year old of the year and Justy started running in Feb.

In my previous post, I said based on what I saw today Im throwing GM out of my tri, and def out of my exacta. I think Bravazo and possibly Lone Sailor could be good to sneak in there, and I believe the pay out will be decent. Justify, IMO, is a lock tomorrow and looked great in his workout today. Looks like it will be a slopfest too.
 
Quick update, Shark and @t6p:

Good Magic had a freakout today in his workout. I threw out Mendy of my KD picks owing to how he looked in his prelim workout. Not only was GM sweaty this week like Mendy was, but at the end of the ride today when he met up with the pony, he reared, bucked and almost threw the excercise rider. If you remember Mendy also got a little out of control at the nemesis of his KD workout.

GM looked great in his KD workouts but just seems to be a bit off to me. I think Im throwing him out of my tri based on that. It will be interesting to see how things play out tomorrow, as he is definitely the second best horse in the field but something seems off to me.

I don't know much about betting but I know horses as that is what I do - train riding horses. He could recover, but to me, that is a bad sign just 24 hours away from the race. Food for thought

That's what this game is about and how you can get paid if you're correct. Finding a reason to dislike a horse that most people betting into the pool are going to like to hit the board. Good Magic will probably be on 40%-50% of people's exacta tickets and 80% of the trifecta plays, so if you can beat him out of the top 2 or 3 you're going to get paid in a nice way provided you're correct with your observation of him.

I also think there's a decent enough chance that Good Magic got demoralized when trying to race against Justify in the Derby. Maybe not more likely than not considering Good Magic has responded well to defeats before. But a decent enough chance. Good Magic is/was an alpha horse, but he found Justify was more alpha, and that could mean that when Good Magic's jockey asks him to attack Justify on the far turn the response might be that he backs down instead of trying to compete. Going into the Derby I thought there was a chance that Bolt d'Oro got demoralized by Justify in the Santa Anita Derby as there was one particular moment in that race where I saw Bolt concede leadership to Justify (Justify veered in towards Bolt in that race and Bolt backed down instantly). When it came to the Kentucky Derby Bolt didn't want any part of Justify around the turn when his jockey asked Bolt to go after him, and Bolt once again conceded to Justify before fading badly in the stretch. If you rewatch the Derby there was a moment during the race about 3/16ths from the wire where Good Magic, while being asked to take on Justify in the stretch, turned his head outwards like he was trying to get away from the big horse. It may have been nothing and it was simply Good Magic getting tired, and probably was. But there's also a decent enough chance that it could have also been a sign of Good Magic conceding leadership to Justify. If it was then we'll probably see the same thing happen to Good Magic that happened to Bolt d'Oro in the Derby. His jockey asks him around the far turn, Good Magic has no response because he already knows Justify is the superior to him, and he fades badly down the stretch in finishing off the board.

That's the stance I'm going to take tomorrow when it comes to the race just because, while it may not be the case, I think there's a much better chance that Good Magic got demoralized in the Derby than what the odds will indicate. We have to gamble sometimes, right? We have to measure our probabilities against what the public's probabilities are and see if we can find some value. I'm not interested in a 3/1 exacta myself. I'd rather try for a 25/1 or maybe even a 50/1 exacta by keying Justify on top of some longshots. The public will bet it like a 90/10 probability whereas I think the chances that Good Magic was demoralized is much higher than 10%. Maybe somewhere in the 30% or 40% range. So I owe it to myself to play the race that way.

You also have to consider that Good Magic isn't in this race to run 2nd again. He's the one horse in this race besides Justify that you know that the connections are in it to try to win it. Most of these horses who are in this race will have connections that will be tickled pink if they run 2nd, and some will even be ridden with the intentions to run 2nd. Good Magic's people aren't. They're going to try to win it and they'll ask the horse to take on Justify at some point in the race. So even if Good Magic wasn't demoralized by Justify last time out there's a very real chance that Justify repels Good Magic's challenge and causes him to fade again in the stretch thus opening the race up for a longer priced horse to round out the exacta.

So whether it be from a herd dynamics standpoint or one from race dynamics, I think the play for this race has to be to try to beat Good Magic out of the exacta at least. He is the 2nd best horse in the race going in. No doubt about it. But based on the above couple of points I'm trying to make I don't think his chances to run 2nd are all that much greater than other horses in the race when everything is considered. Certainly not 5, 10 or 15 times greater as the exacta payouts would have you believe. That's where the value is in this race I do believe.

I'm probably going to play this race like a 1x3 exacta with no Good Magic, and then maybe do a 1x3x4 trifecta by including Good Magic in 3rd only for some defensive purposes. A Justify over Good Magic isn't worth it. A Justify over Good Magic over someone else in the trifecta probably isn't much worth it either.
 
Not that I'm all that excited to play the Preakness, but for what it's worth this is what I have;

- #4 Diamond King to place ($5) and show ($10), and then keying #7 Justify over #4 Diamond King, #6 Tenfold, #8 Bravazo in exactas ($6 each) and trifectas ($2 each).

Once you get past Justify and then Good Magic, the rest of the horses in the field all look of similar quality so far. But both Diamond King (especially*) and Tenfold have very nice patterns for a jump up performance in this race at big odds, and John Servis, who trains Diamond King, doesn't show up just for the experience unlike some trainers. He's very conservative when it comes to spotting his horses in big races. Servis entering that horse here instead of the much easier Peter Pan race last weekend tells me he thinks he has a live one to at least run well. Or as Bob Baffert said yesterday, "John Servis didn't come for the crab cakes". We'll see. I have him ranked 3rd on my numbers and he may go off as the longest price on the board seeing as how most people don't give him any kind of shot at all. Which is great for me because I do like him some. He's a gutsy, hard trying type who hasn't shown an ounce of quit in any of his races either, and often times those qualities are enough to produce a result that might surprise some people.

*Brisnet figures of 87, 95, 91 as a two year-old and 93, 95 so far as a three year-old. Beyers of 68, 81, 79 at two, and then 82, 84 at three. Whether it happens in a tough race like the Preakness or not, there's very likely a progression coming soon for the horse as long as he stays healthy & active, and him pairing up his top figures in his last race while coming off a layoff is a great sign for further improvement.
 
I also spent a few hours scouring the past performances of at least 40 races at various tracks looking for specific kinds of horses in some spot plays. Did the numbers for about a dozen of those races, and then after doing so, narrowed it down to these selective plays for tomorrow;

Race 6 at Belmont Park - #5 Asphalt Paving 3/1
Race 1 at Emerald Downs - #6 Curious Rumor 4/1
Race 3 at Prairie Meadows - #8 Train Walk 5/1
Race 6 at Prairie Meadows - #7 Sweet Tatum 6/1
Race 4 at Evangeline Downs - #7 Cowboy Don 20/1
Race 8 at Prairie Meadows - #6 Scrutinizer 6/1

If I get the right odds on these horses come post time I'm likely to play them each to win for $20 each.
 
I doubt you will. He is the one horse that does not seem to deserve to be there to me. Obviously anything can happen, but he just seems to be a different class of runner than the KD horses and others like Quip.

Throwing even a $2 exacta with Justify over Diamond King is not going to hurt anybody in the least, and because Diamond King is likely to be the longest shot on the board, you have the potential to turn that measely $2 into a $100+ return.

If you're already putting together various exacta combos @Monster Meat what's one more? Especially when it was on your mind already.
 
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