Kenny Florian And Jon Anik schooling Jones haters. The myth Jones got outstruck

[sonofjay817]

Literally I don’t think AA landed a punch on fedor
I remember someone breaking the fight down in slow mo from all angles and he was slipping them all

I wasn't trying to be funny...lol. All these years, I thought Arlovski was piecing him up until the end. I want to see a replay now.

 

[SKYNET]

Fair enough.
I would say there are 2 areas where the people supporting the Jones decision would disagree with you.
1) The accuracy of the Fight Metrics. While it's true that they could also miscalculate Jones strikes, it is much more likely that Reyes benefited from more mistakes. He was throwing more flurries, and Jones does less to avoid shots.
Jones is the more skilled, technical defensive fighter. So he narrowly avoids a lot more shots than his opponents, who will generally make more drastic movements to avoid. As evidenced by the exchange that @Verace posted.
On top of this, Jones is actually doing more "unseen" damage with his strikes. The leg kicks may be getting recorded equally, but Jones is clearly more effective with doing damage. As evidenced by the substantial damage revealed when the adrenaline wore off on his last 2 opponents. And even the way Gustafson was completely halted in his attack by leg kicks in their rematch.
2) The definition and value of "effective aggression". You, like most people objecting to the scoring, are saying that Jones simply "moved forward" with "no real effect on Reyes". As if the fact Reyes had nothing to offer in the last 2 rounds is not clear evidence of the effectiveness of his pressure.
The metric you should look up for your "clear factual evidence" is the metric of distance covered in the cage. I bet Reyes covered 5 times the distance, while moving backwards. Which is exhausting. Which is what makes the last 2 rounds a matter of survival for Reyes, and not pulling out the decision.
Which is the exact purpose of effective aggression. So while "dictating the pace at which you lose" is a cute little quote to memorize and use every time you think it's applicable, it does not apply here.
Jones 2,3,4,5

Yes, Reyes has missed a lot of strikes @Verace - doesn't change the fact that he has landed more though.
Also: if you assume that those judges are generally bad at recognizing how many strikes actually landed, then you can't only say that about Reyes, but have to say it about Jones as well.
What's also true, is that Reyes has Jones had hurt so bad at the beginning of the fourth (18 seconds in, after clearly landing a powerful left straight and a left hook to Jones face as well) that Jon immediately started to wrestle, making even Dominick Cruz (who at least in the stand up should be able to recognize a few things) saying that Jones is hurt.
Another thing is, that Reyes landed the majority of his strikes on the head and body of Jones, while Jones was only outlanding Reyes on leg kicks.
Significant strikes landed by target (Jones in red, Reyes in blue):
Head: 31 to 41 significant strikes landed
Body: 30 to 48 significant strikes landed
Legs: 43 to 27 significant strikes landed
Moreover, the octagon control/aggression argument does not really make sense, as (to quote analyst Jack Slack here) "if you're moving forward constantly but not doing anything about the strikes and not landing your own strikes, the only thing you're really dictating is not the pace, but the pace at which you lose."
Aggression and moving forward is worthless if it comes at the cost of being outlanded.
As for the grappling exchanges: Jones landed one takedown in round four (where he literally couldn't keep Reyes on the floor for one second) and another one in the last round, where Reyes was (technically) on the ground for 4-6 seconds.
Overall, at least three rounds should go to Reyes, whereas Jones had the nod in round five and - depending on how much value you put on a takedown that resulted in no top control - maybe in round four, as five of the seven strikes that Jon landed more in that round were leg kicks, whereas Reyes had Jon hurt at the aforementioned beginning of that round.
@GrayArea @20falarVerdades @TheToqueville @Ken Fresno i know you guys have been (more or less) arguing back and forth in favor of Jones, while i had Reyes winning, so i figured i'd tag you in this response to Verace OP instead of answering to each of you in too many threads.
An answer from you - preferably without any insults or ad hominems - would be appreciated.
Note to @TheToqueville: in case you bring it up: i guess St-Pierre vs Hendricks could have gone either way, but despite absorbing the more powerful shots, St-Pierre did at least outstrike Hendricks and had the upper hand in the wrestling exchanges as well (landing three takedowns, compared to Hendricks' two.)

I just have to say, these 2 posts are outstanding. Despite who I may or may not agree with, I salute you both for excellent posts. Thanks

 

[SuperNerd]

lol "real fight fans appreciate Jon Jones"

are you guys developing a french accent too?

These assholes going around the forum hating and Georges and his fans, sound juuuust like them now.

 

[TGArthur]

I've said this before and some people don't seem to understand, there are a lot of "influencing" factors outside of black and white rules that sways judges to different decisions:

-Later rounds definitely impact decision making more so than early rounds when it's razor close
-Takedowns
-Going backwards vs going forward

Not saying 3-2 Reyes wasn't the right call because that's how I had it, but if you are gassed, backpedaling, stop throwing combos, get taken down easier, and take more punishment in the later round, it certainly doesn't help your case at all...

 

[JohnMandick]

To the eye with brains, it is pretty clear who won the first 3 rounds.

 

[Terry Toughnut]

I watched it back last night, rounds 2 & 3. 3rd round was the only one I wasnt 100% sure about live although I gave it to Reyes.

Watching it again I still couldn’t find any way to give Jones the 3rd. 48-47 Reyes.

 

[Joseph_McBride]

"Reyes strikes didn't really land."

LOL as if Jones glancing push kicks to the legs did anything, yet they count the same as Reyes nasty body shots.

Kenny is a pathologic liar but I expected more from Anik. Just wait until Rogan puts out his next mma pod, he'll convince people Jones won 5-0. Shills gonna shill.

 

[Iron Nick]

First of all: thank you for being responsive to all these points of mine.

The accuracy of the Fight Metrics. While it's true that they could also miscalculate Jones strikes, it is much more likely that Reyes benefited from more mistakes. He was throwing more flurries, and Jones does less to avoid shots.

Jones is the more skilled, technical defensive fighter. So he narrowly avoids a lot more shots than his opponents. Who will generally make more drastic movements to avoid. As evidenced by the exchange that @Verace posted.

That's definitely true, but honestly, we don't know how much they miscalculate. Surely, Reyes style is more susceptible for miscalculations as you've said, but considering that it's not just one, but several (although i don't know the number) persons who're determining which strikes landed and which not, so i don't think it's that inaccurate.
Another thing is, that Reyes' sign. strike accuracy in that fight (44%) seems very reasonable for the amount of strikes he has thrown/landed, as his career overall accuracy (inside the UFC) was at 52% before the fight and his amount of sign. strikes landed per minute at 5.03 before the fight, while it was 4.64 per minute for this fight (so it's no wonder Reyes was gassed at the end either.)
Another thing why i think the striking counts are pretty accurate for Reyes, is the fact that Reyes has landed (way) less head strikes in this fight, so i'm sure that the vast majority, if not all of those missed strikes have been counted as such.
Reyes' strikes landed by target in the UFC before this fight (yellow) compared to this exact fight (green):

Head: 71% to 35% (-36%)

Body: 17% to 41% (+24%)

Legs: 12% to 23% (+11%)

So considering the aformentioned flurries by Reyes, these percentages make sense - after all he's literally been half as accurate than usual.
But a thing which makes it in my opinion even more clear that those flurries have not pushed the stats in Reyes favor:
Dominick Reyes has landed 41 head strikes, while missing - guess how many - a whopping 128 head strikes.
That's actually quite insane, i can't imagine Reyes missing more than that and to be honest: i can't imagine him missing that much at all, but really: it's hard to imagine that he has not landed at least those 41 of 169 head strikes at all.

On top of this, Jones is actually doing more "unseen" damage with his strikes. The leg kicks may be getting recorded equally, but Jones is clearly more effective with doing damage. As evidenced by the substantial damage revealed when the adrenaline wore off on his last 2 opponents. And even the way Gustafson was completely halted in his attack by leg kicks in their rematch.

Not a bad point, but i'm not sure how much it should be valued on how much leg kicks specifically influence a fighter after the fight.
Inside the cage Reyes maintained his stance, hasn't had swollen legs nor did he panically pull his legs up to check at every instance Jones' threw or feinted a leg kick either.
I think a large part on why Reyes was comparatively gun-shy in the last round was due to his cardio and the threat of Jones' wrestling alone.

2) The definition and value of "effective aggression". You, like most people objecting to the scoring, are saying that Jones simply "moved forward" with "no real effect on Reyes". As if the fact Reyes had nothing to offer in the last 2 rounds is not clear evidence of the effectiveness of his pressure.

The metric you should look up for your "clear factual evidence" is the metric of distance covered in the cage. I bet Reyes covered 5 times the distance, while moving backwards. Which is exhausting. Which is what makes the last 2 rounds a matter of survival for Reyes, and not pulling out the decision.

Which is the exact purpose of effective aggression. So while "dictating the pace at which you lose" is a cute little quote to memorize and use every time you think it's applicable, it does not apply here.

Yes, that is the goal of aggression, but if you're tiring your opponent out because of aggressively advancing forward and still get outstruck, then i fail to see how it matters really, no offense man.

Jones 2,3,4,5

I disagree - more like Reyes 1-2-3 (and the fourth possibly being in the favor of neither fighter - at least not as much in favor of one fighter as the other rounds.)

 

[OriginMMA]

Not a single strike landed.

@ScarfaceJr



Kenny bless

Reminds me of when Dustin was throwing shots at Khabib and people were thinking he was getting tagged because of how awkward his head movement was. Similar to this.

 

[Strijfy]

Anik can get stuffed , he wouldnt know half at what he was looking at either.
Atributes a left elbow by Bones that missed by a mile cos Reynes had already moved.
Shit commentator talking shit.

 

[Ken Fresno]

First of all: thank you for being responsive to all these points of mine.

That's definitely true, but honestly, we don't know how much they miscalculate. Surely, Reyes style is more susceptible for miscalculations as you've said, but considering that it's not just one, but several (although i don't know the number) persons who're determining which strikes landed and which not, so i don't think it's that inaccurate.
Another thing is, that Reyes' sign. strike accuracy in that fight (44%) seems very reasonable for the amount of strikes he has thrown/landed, as his career overall accuracy (inside the UFC) was at 52% before the fight and his amount of sign. strikes landed per minute at 5.03 before the fight, while it was 4.64 per minute for this fight (so it's no wonder Reyes was gassed at the end either.)
Another thing why i think the striking counts are pretty accurate for Reyes, is the fact that Reyes has landed (way) less head strikes in this fight, so i'm sure that the vast majority, if not all of those missed strikes have been counted as such.
Reyes' strikes landed by target in the UFC before this fight (yellow) compared to this exact fight (green):

Head: 71% to 35% (-36%)

Body: 17% to 41% (+24%)

Legs: 12% to 23% (+11%)

So considering the aformentioned flurries by Reyes, these percentages make sense - after all he's literally been half as accurate than usual.
But a thing which makes it in my opinion even more clear that those flurries have not pushed the stats in Reyes favor:
Dominick Reyes has landed 41 head strikes, while missing - guess how many - a whopping 128 head strikes.
That's actually quite insane, i can't imagine Reyes missing more than that and to be honest: i can't imagine him missing that much at all, but really: it's hard to imagine that he has not landed at least those 41 of 169 head strikes at all.

Not a bad point, but i'm not sure how much it should be valued on how much leg kicks specifically influence a fighter after the fight.
Inside the cage Reyes maintained his stance, hasn't had swollen legs nor did he panically pull his legs up to check at every instance Jones' threw or feinted a leg kick either.
I think a large part on why Reyes was comparatively gun-shy in the last round was due to his cardio and the threat of Jones' wrestling alone.

Yes, that is the goal of aggression, but if you're tiring your opponent out because of aggressively advancing forward and still get outstruck, then i fail to see how it matters really, no offense man.

I disagree - more like Reyes 1-2-3 (and the fourth possibly being in the favor of neither fighter - at least not as much in favor of one fighter as the other rounds.)

You’re still acting like he’s Chris Leben or Cabbage Carreira with the forward pressure. He is also landing. He is making his man miss. He is making his man cover distance. He is making his man react.

He was the ocean, his man was the log.

-Teddy Atlas


The ocean gets the nod in close rounds.

 

[Iron Nick]

Reminds me of when Dustin was throwing shots at Khabib and people were thinking he was getting tagged because of how awkward his head movement was. Similar to this.

Considering that Reyes has missed way more head strikes than normally, making him landing 35% of his headstrikes compared to his usual 71%, i don't think they've miscalculated it as much, if at all.

 

[Iron Nick]

You’re still acting like he’s Chris Leben or Cabbage Carreira with the forward pressure. He is also landing. He is making his man miss. He is making his man cover distance. He is making his man react.

He was the ocean, his man was the log.

-Teddy Atlas


The ocean gets the nod in close rounds.

I didn't want to sh*t on Jones or dismiss his ability in any way here, honestly, i just think that (if no one is doing an Elias Theodoru) all that matters is what is actually landing - aggression, the accuracy and all these things tell us how the fighters do it, but as long as some fighter is outstriking another fighter, i wouldn't take it into the equation at all.

As a metaphor: if a game in ballsport ends 10-9, then no one is disputing the fact that the team with 10 points (or goals) won, no matter how much goals the losing team made in the last couple of minutes and how much better they were there, or how much efficient in general.

I could see an argument for Jones being more equal to Reyes in the striking if Reyes was throwing pitter patter strikes, but both him and Jones really threw down.

 

[kuroro]

Judging fights is not about counting shit.

 

[Superzorro]

Even an experienced Sherdogger can be blown away by the number of bums on the internet who think they understand what Jones is doing in there. And that they can assess it better than every single professional fighter/analyst, almost none of whom are crying robbery.

2 fights in a row now too.

Jon Anik and Kenny Florian are morons that know nothing about the sport they’ve been covering for a big portion of their lives. When in doubt, there’s always the “shill” conspiracy theory.

I have 2 eyes. I know who won.

"the myth Jones got outstruck"

Nice title. It's no myth - I watched the fight with my own two eyes.

We have two eyes too. And so do they. I think the reality might be it was a close fight, no? Isn’t that what the evidence points to? Or is it impossible to have a different opinion than you without being a retard?

 

[StanClarker]

yes, people that don’t do sports analysis are caught plagiarizing real sports analysts. What could go wrong?

Jon Anik... aka UFC media point man. Resume: Has been watching MMA fights for quite a long time.

 

[CTEGod]

Jon Anik... aka UFC media point man. Resume: Has been watching MMA fights for quite a long time.

except i quoted florian

 

[Pakman]

Reminds me of when Fedor fought Arlovski and everyone thought AA was dominating because of all his closely missed strikes.

lol yeah, AA's best punch landed on his chest. Fedor's 1 punch sent AA's career into the toilet.

 

[StanClarker]

except i quoted florian

Teh meme is for Anik. See how the 'net is?

 

[Wicked_1]

No judge or anyone else watching from one angle in real time can accurately count strikes landed. It's not possible. Going over the fight in slow motion it's even hard. Why they use a boxing system to score mma is beyond me. Rogan called out the one hmjudge in the other fight not even watching the fight as nd even Cruz said they were looking at the ground. I thought maybe they had a monitor there, but u would thing the commentators would know of this. The scoring is uber flawed...that's why u cant leave it in the hands of the judge .