Ken Primoa on US wrestling mentality vs Russian Mentailty

I'm not a wrestler, but I still found Ken Primoa's outlook very interesting. As a white belt in BJJ, I'm not sure if I should focus on a "technique" rolling session or a "competitive" rolling session. When I'm just trying to work on technique, I often find myself getting submitted or easily outpointed, but when I'm doing trying hard to "beat" the other guy I do much better.

I want to know how to properly rule as a white belt so I don't have the wrong mindset as I advance.
 
5 POINT THROWS





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That video of throws is epic! loved the Karelin throws at the end.
 
Sorry but no, just no.

Ask any coach in the U.S and he will tell you technique in important, saying Russians concentrate more on technique is just dumb. Don't know how you can justify this.


The in your face aggressive style that is associated with many U.S wrestlers is because we wrestle folkstyle, a style that emphasizes action unlike freestyle which promotes stalling for the most part.

Mat wrestling is more important in folk than free as opposed to most freestyle guys who are content with stalling to just get back up. This aggressive style doesn't work in free b/c the good wrestlers will counter you and you don't have to control your opponent to get points.


I don't understand how America can possibly put more emphasis on conditioning than other freestyle countries do. One fo my team mates who was a state champ passed out in our practices on more than 1 occasion. He never gassed and was undefeated his senior year. He had an average record in a d-2 college- HE's REALLY telling me that OLYMPIANS who have GREAT cardio don't train harder than that?

Sorry, they put in more work than my team mate has in his life, if that's emphasis to you than so do freestyle countries. Olympians have GREAT cardio end of discussion.

Also it seems most of his conclusions come from youtube videos (lol?)

No way you can tell me that the best wrestlers in the world don't practice balls to the wall.

And he keeps repeating (or implies) how the freestyle countries don't focus on strength/physicality as much.

GTFO!!!!!!!!!1

Are you telling me Russian and other freestyle countries Olympians are WEAK?!? LOL.

Wrestling is a STRENGTH sport, and like other sports where strength is important, the top guys are the strongest or among the strongest in their weight classes.

Bringing up guys like Saitiev is DEAD wrong, Saitiev is a ridiculous outlier and one of the reasons he is the GOAT is because he wasn't one of the strongest or even close. And he's VERY strong FOR HIS SIZE. Definitely not lacking in that department. He also has other physical attributes that make up for his strength deficiencies.

HOW MANY WORD CLASS OR EVEN BEST IN THEIR NATIONS LANKY LIKE SAITIEV?

Ben Askren is an outlier also, but when he lost to Pendleton and got dominated by Fundora he lost to a wrestler who was much shorter and much STRONGER than he was.

THERE IS A REASON WRESTLERS ARE STEREOTYPICALLY SHORT AND STRONG

The people built with that body type are the generally the most successful in wrestling.

To summarize: but the dude is just wrong

The reason for the U.S lagging behind is

1) We don't focus on freestyle, rule differences are huge, our Olympians now a days besides a few talented at both were not D-1 champs, look at Jamill Kelly for an extreme example, I could list more. Techniques and style are much different between the sports.

2) Young wrestlers there have access to world champs and great training facilities. Just like how Europe has better soccer players because they have youth academies. Same with wrestling and soccer in the U.S, no academies and it's not as popular as American Football or Baseball so it has no chance of being great.

3) Other countries actually pay their wrestlers especially in Iran and former Soviet Union countries. Saitiev is friends with the president of RUSSIA FFS! And some billionaires and Chechen president.

Wrestlers there are HEROES and you can become famous for being a great.

Tradition plays a big role in shaping sports in ways money can't.

Same way South Africa, Australia, and New Zeanland dominate Rugby as well as England and Argentina is an outlier.

This whole technique thing is dumb, you want to tell the U.S Olympians they have bad technique? No. you don't.

/rant. :mad:
















:redface::icon_chee

I agree with a lot of the points you made and certainly a lot of what you said contribute to some of the variances in performance between the nations, but at the same time I think this rant is a bit misplaced. I don't think Ken was saying that the U.S. technique is terrible and they just work out and the Russians just drill and don't exercise. I think he was just trying to point out the differences in approach.
At least in my experience, though I was very lucky to have one of the best high school coaches in Pat Milkovich who is as technical as any wrestler as I've met, even then the mindset was always, "Never get taken down no matter what. Never get reversed, etc." even during practice. Now this is good in the sense that it cultivates a never lose, tough competitive mindset. But looking back it came at the cost of the growth and expansion of my wrestling game which you get through experimentation trying different things and failing. I got set into my comfort zone of techniques I would use and rarely went outside those parameters lest god forbid I get taken down during practice. Having started BJJ recently this is a distinct difference I saw in attitude and I think it would carry over well to wrestling. Just my perspective and what I got out of what Ken was talking about more than it being a U.S. vs Russia thing.
 
Um consider that America has more freestyle medals

And Russia has more Greco-Roman medals

You can't really say one is that much better than the other
 
At least in my experience looking back it came at the cost of the growth and expansion of my wrestling game which you get through experimentation trying different things and failing. I got set into my comfort zone of techniques I would use and rarely went outside those parameters lest god forbid I get taken down during practice. Having started BJJ recently this is a distinct difference I saw in attitude and I think it would carry over well to wrestling. Just my perspective and what I got out of what Ken was talking about more than it being a U.S. vs Russia thing.

+1

Could not agree more. I found this new laid back approach to wrestling under my JC coach, who coached the Olympics in greco. His workouts were not that crazy smash and mash type of deal that I was used to in hs. Also maybe bc he was a little older, and I was wrestling with my hs buddies and we would always try crazy shit on each other. And when I started doing BJJ it felt like that experience. Very laid back. Fun, basically.
 
Um consider that America has more freestyle medals

And Russia has more Greco-Roman medals

You can't really say one is that much better than the other

Take a look at the last ten years ... Russia has considerably more at both. In 2008 Russia got 11 medals, the US got 3. Canada, for comparison (which is a weak wrestling country) got 2.

Which coincides with a lot of wrestling programs being dropped in US colleges. The US was at one time a very strong wrestling country, just slightly behind the USSR. Cuts to funding has changed that, its now dropped dramatically - which should be no surprise.
 
Um consider that America has more freestyle medals

And Russia has more Greco-Roman medals

You can't really say one is that much better than the other

sorry, you are just wrong, unless you look over a ridiculous long time frame (including 40+ years when they didnt even compete), SU/Russia has more FS medals, more since 1952, more in the last decade, more team titles, however you spin it, America used to be a powerhouse in FS, now it is nothing at all.
 
I cannot speak of the wrestling but I do believe I have somewhat of a unique perspective as an American in regards to judo/sambo training in Russia.

I have trained in Russia and the former Soviet Bloc countries on 14 occasions and I have found that the Russian way of training is rather laid back. That being said everybody is working but the intensity level is alot lower. Injuries are seemingly rare but they do happen.
For example at my friends Igor Kurinnoy's school "Borec" Igor will demo a technique and then everybody pairs off and works on it. Igor will come around to each pair and evaluate and make adjustments but no one is trying to smash their training partner.

During the randori (free sparring) sessions at Sambo-70 everybody warms up on their own and then the head coach calls for 5 minute go's. If someone gets in for a throw his training partner just goes with it and takes the fall. This seems to greatly reduce injuries and wear and tear. During these practices you'll also see current and former Olympic and World Team members mentoring the younger/up and coming athletes.

I'm not saying it's better or worse, it just seems to work for the Russians.

I'm totally down for this type of training.
Just wish everyone in my gym was.
Training under stress inhibits the brain and the ability to use higher levels of intelligence which in the long run slows growth and dynamicsm.

This is not to say I don't believe in isolated hard drilling. Both are useful tools.
 
+1

Could not agree more. I found this new laid back approach to wrestling under my JC coach, who coached the Olympics in greco. His workouts were not that crazy smash and mash type of deal that I was used to in hs. Also maybe bc he was a little older, and I was wrestling with my hs buddies and we would always try crazy shit on each other. And when I started doing BJJ it felt like that experience. Very laid back. Fun, basically.

There was a poster here who was a very accomplished wrestler and trained overseas (can't remember his name now) and he said that one of the "problems" are how our competitive wrestling season is organized at HS. Coaches are forced to find a way to win in that short season rather than have a long season to work with his wrestlers. Let's face it, one of the ways you can win with less technique is just outpacing your opponent. That seems to be the path that a lot of HS or J SH coaches take when it comes to their teams.
 
There was a poster here who was a very accomplished wrestler and trained overseas (can't remember his name now) and he said that one of the "problems" are how our competitive wrestling season is organized at HS. Coaches are forced to find a way to win in that short season rather than have a long season to work with his wrestlers. Let's face it, one of the ways you can win with less technique is just outpacing your opponent. That seems to be the path that a lot of HS or J SH coaches take when it comes to their teams.

nefti that is very on point. My son is in his 1st year of HS and the 1st match is Dec 2nd the state championships are mid february and wrestling practice has not started yet. :(

For him it wouldnt matter he is on the jv football team and they have 1 game left and then the JV District championship game. So about 2 weeks from now he will go practice and lots of wrestlers also play football. So 3 weeks to prepare then the season starts and from the start of the season until the end? roughly 10-12 weeks.


That is why you have guys that are usually pretty good at a few things and in great shape that do the best.
 
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The technique and sparring is the difference as well as they are just better, also inventing your own rules to a sport then expecting to do well under the main rules internationally is not gonna happen, but the international(russian rules) help the russians, the world cup is the sign of the best wrestling nation. the worlds and olympics are not the toughest comps anymore, its russian nationals iranian nationals, takhti cup general comps, iranian premier league where there are an unlimited amount of russians, iranians and azerbeijanis.
 
The technique and sparring is the difference as well as they are just better, also inventing your own rules to a sport then expecting to do well under the main rules internationally is not gonna happen, but the international(russian rules) help the russians, the world cup is the sign of the best wrestling nation. the worlds and olympics are not the toughest comps anymore, its russian nationals iranian nationals, takhti cup general comps, iranian premier league where there are an unlimited amount of russians, iranians and azerbeijanis.

Inventing your own rules? You do know that olympic wrestling used to be called CACC right?
It was basically folkstyle. The rules got changed after the fact, we just had not changed ours. So it wasnt us changing our rules it was international rules being changed and us sticking to folk style.

But even with that until the most recent rule changes the US did just fine in the 80's and 90's.
 
I agree with a lot of the points you made and certainly a lot of what you said contribute to some of the variances in performance between the nations, but at the same time I think this rant is a bit misplaced. I don't think Ken was saying that the U.S. technique is terrible and they just work out and the Russians just drill and don't exercise. I think he was just trying to point out the differences in approach.
At least in my experience, though I was very lucky to have one of the best high school coaches in Pat Milkovich who is as technical as any wrestler as I've met, even then the mindset was always, "Never get taken down no matter what. Never get reversed, etc." even during practice. Now this is good in the sense that it cultivates a never lose, tough competitive mindset. But looking back it came at the cost of the growth and expansion of my wrestling game which you get through experimentation trying different things and failing. I got set into my comfort zone of techniques I would use and rarely went outside those parameters lest god forbid I get taken down during practice. Having started BJJ recently this is a distinct difference I saw in attitude and I think it would carry over well to wrestling. Just my perspective and what I got out of what Ken was talking about more than it being a U.S. vs Russia thing.

Forgive me I'm pretty biased and my rants shouldn't be taken to seriously

You make good points, but there is no way you can tell me other countries don't drill intensely (I know you pointed that out) and have a don't lose attitude.

Americans had great wrestlers internationally in the 80's and 90's and with the exception of MAYBE Dave Schultz I think all of them followed the American attitude. This leads me to believe it has to do with more apparent factors such as money or lack of great athletes (not that our athletes are bad) or just lack of public appreciation.



I also don't know what you mean by finding a comfort zone and going out side parameters, ALL Olympians and great wrestlers in General use ONLY the basics and nothing else.

Or did I misinterpret you? I would love to see you elaborate on that.

Also I'd like to see "laid back" defined, we always had fun in practice but after he worked hard.

I don't think some one could convince me that their mindset is like bjj, different yes, but not THAT laid back, getting as good as Olympians takes ridiculous hard work.
 
JZMinotauro,
I think that you are not considering that you should take things and statments and think in the way they were used. Ken Primoa (btw who wrestled in college and had conversations with college coaches that experienced the Russian wrestling coaching style) is not saying that they train wrestling like bjj like you and i train bjj.
 
Inventing your own rules? You do know that olympic wrestling used to be called CACC right?
It was basically folkstyle. The rules got changed after the fact, we just had not changed ours. So it wasnt us changing our rules it was international rules being changed and us sticking to folk style.

But even with that until the most recent rule changes the US did just fine in the 80's and 90's.

Clearly by this comment you guys are doing fine then. Basically isn't the same, the rules was one of my minor points the main being technique and you definately can't argue with that american technique has always been substantially weaker than that of the east.
 

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