Ken Primoa on US wrestling mentality vs Russian Mentailty

So what I'm hearing is at the lower level muscle and conditioning works. Train hard, go balls to the wall etc. But, to make it to the next level we need to take a more chilled approach of going with the flow, technical etc.

This wasn't common knowledge?
 
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So what I'm hearing is at the lower level muscle and conditioning works. Train hard, go balls to the wall etc. But, to make it to the next level we need to take a more chilled approach of going with the flow, technical etc.

This wasn't common knowledge?

apparently not
 
he makes some solid points but it comes down to that the rest of the world trains freestyle/greco while usa trains folkstyle as well those two. This puts us behind the curve in freestyle to the russians bc they have more experience doing it. USA minimizes the skill gap in freestyle solely bc we train like animals. If USA wrestling got rid of folkstyle and focused solely on freestyle like everyone else I truly believe we would be the best.
 
i don't think it's an issue of folk vs freestyle but a rather of how our jhs/hs wrestling seasons/competitions are scheduled
 
You guys should check out Andy Hrovats blog about him training in Russia for the next 7 months. He talks about training over there and training here.
 
You guys should check out Andy Hrovats blog about him training in Russia for the next 7 months. He talks about training over there and training here.

Here's a clip from his blog

"To answer some of the questions, right now this trip isn't costing me anything. USA wrestling is paying for it, I was planning on coming over here to wrestle in the Yariguin tournament at the end of the month so the airfare was already paid for. As for the food I has been great, good soups, meat, pasta, potatoes, eggs fir breakfast. The dinning experience has been different though. There is assigned seating how it goes I have no idea. There are 40 seats in the cafeteria and when we all walk in everyone sits down. A few wrestlers walk up to the serving line and bring back the food for their table. At my table is Besik Kudokov, Irebk Farniev, and another wrestler who I am not sure of his name. My first few days here Kudokov would not allow me to do anything. He brought me my food, poured my drinks, gave me hot tea, and cleared my plates when I was finished. Everytable is like that all the wrestlers chip in and really take care of each other. I slowly worked my way into helping out. The wrestling culture here is like that of a big family, like a world champion serving a younger wrestler food. When people come into the wrestling room they walk around and make sure they shake everyones hand and show everyone the respect they deserve.
This really opened my eyes when I first took notice to it. Last month at the freestyle summit in Colorado we talked about developing future talent in the US. This is a great example as to how and do it, the Junior team and Senior team train together but unlike here in America after the training is done we go our own ways in the dorms and cafeteria. Here they are friends, and it is almost like they are mentoring the future talent and prepping them for when they get a shot at wrestling for a world and Olympic title."
 
I don't know if I agree or disagree with everything said here, but I do know that from 1904-2004, the USA has a total of 108 Olympic medals for Freestyle Wrestling, almost double the next highest nation's medal count (Soviet Union with 56, while Russia has 15 due to limited years competing as a new nation).

Just something to think about.

If we are just talking freestyle and if we are talking golds:

In the last decade the US have won 3 olympic/world medals (2 olympic and 1 world) and russia have won 34. There are individual Russians who have won as many or more golds as the US as a whole in that timeframe.

The 1904 Olympics in St Louis was contested entirely by Americans, so it is hardly surprising that the 7 gold medals (and 7 silver and 7 bronze) on offer were won by americans.

I don't think the SU even started entering the Olympics until 1952 but since that time the US has won 26 gold and Russia/Unified team/Soviet union has won 44 (i think). In that same timeframe Russia/Unified Team/Soviet Union has won 8 team titles and the US 2.

So your numbers probably distort the reality and in any case, the depth and quality of FS competitors from the US has totally nosedived in the last decade.
 
Well to be fair in the 80's and 90's the USA was very competitive on the world stage. Also werent there some boycotts in the early 80's that we may have won some more?

Anyway, what happened?
Rule changes perhaps?
 
down with folkstyle.

there. I said it....:icon_twis



Gi/nogi, IJF debates got nothing on that one. I think the mat.com nearly exploded the internet with that debate a few times. :icon_lol:
 
down with folkstyle.

there. I said it....:icon_twis



Gi/nogi, IJF debates got nothing on that one. I think the mat.com nearly exploded the internet with that debate a few times. :icon_lol:

Noooooooooooooooooo!!!
 
Well to be fair in the 80's and 90's the USA was very competitive on the world stage. Also werent there some boycotts in the early 80's that we may have won some more?

Anyway, what happened?
Rule changes perhaps?

Break up of soviet union must have played a part.

1984, 93, 5 and 6 were the best years for the US.

The boycotts were 1980 moscow olympics (where Soviets took 7 gold) and 1984 LA Olympics (where US took 7 gold). I'm not sure if any World Championships in that timeframe were boycotted? The soviets and US were at the worlds on both sides of those 2 olympics.
 
Well to be fair in the 80's and 90's the USA was very competitive on the world stage. Also werent there some boycotts in the early 80's that we may have won some more?

Anyway, what happened?
Rule changes perhaps?

There were two boycotts - the Americans weren't in Moscow in 1980, the Soviets weren't in Los Angeles in 1984 (the second boycott was automatic as soon as the first was announced ... really dumb decision by Carter btw). So the boycotts evened out.

And yes, in the 80's, 90's (and especially 70's) the USA was very competitive, just slightly behind the Soviet Union. What happened was that wrestling dropped in importance (or perhaps better said, got less support - Title IX and all that, which is in fact a pretty complex issue) in the US, while the Soviet Union split up, letting former Soviet states like Georgia send their own athletes (and wrestling is huge there). And when the USSR broke up, for a short time Russian wrestling fell off because of general instability/lack of funding.

But Russians began funding theirs again, the US hasn't. And until that happens it doesn't matter if the US does folkstyle or freestyle, they won't catch up - you can't compete if you don't fund your athletes. Cripes, Canada got almost as many medals in the last Olympics as the US - that shows how far the US has fallen.
 
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There were two boycotts - the Americans weren't in Moscow in 1980, the Soviets weren't in Los Angeles in 1984 (the second boycott was automatic as soon as the first was announced ... really dumb decision by Carter btw). So the boycotts evened out.

And yes, in the 80's, 90's (and especially 70's) the USA was very competitive, just slightly behind the Soviet Union. What happened was that wrestling dropped in importance (or perhaps better said, got less support - Title IX and all that, which is in fact a pretty complex issue) in the US, while the Soviet Union split up, letting former Soviet states like Georgia send their own athletes (and wrestling is huge there). And when the USSR broke up, for a short time Russian wrestling fell off because of general instability/lack of funding.

But Russians began funding theirs again, the US hasn't. And until that happens it doesn't matter if the US does folkstyle or freestyle, they won't catch up - you can't compete if you don't fund your athletes. Cripes, Canada got almost as many medals in the last Olympics as the US - that shows how far the US has fallen.

Great explanation and certainly a believable reason for the decline! Thanks for the feedback.
 
Sorry but no, just no.

Ask any coach in the U.S and he will tell you technique in important, saying Russians concentrate more on technique is just dumb. Don't know how you can justify this.


The in your face aggressive style that is associated with many U.S wrestlers is because we wrestle folkstyle, a style that emphasizes action unlike freestyle which promotes stalling for the most part.

Mat wrestling is more important in folk than free as opposed to most freestyle guys who are content with stalling to just get back up. This aggressive style doesn't work in free b/c the good wrestlers will counter you and you don't have to control your opponent to get points.


I don't understand how America can possibly put more emphasis on conditioning than other freestyle countries do. One fo my team mates who was a state champ passed out in our practices on more than 1 occasion. He never gassed and was undefeated his senior year. He had an average record in a d-2 college- HE's REALLY telling me that OLYMPIANS who have GREAT cardio don't train harder than that?

Sorry, they put in more work than my team mate has in his life, if that's emphasis to you than so do freestyle countries. Olympians have GREAT cardio end of discussion.

Also it seems most of his conclusions come from youtube videos (lol?)

No way you can tell me that the best wrestlers in the world don't practice balls to the wall.

And he keeps repeating (or implies) how the freestyle countries don't focus on strength/physicality as much.

GTFO!!!!!!!!!1

Are you telling me Russian and other freestyle countries Olympians are WEAK?!? LOL.

Wrestling is a STRENGTH sport, and like other sports where strength is important, the top guys are the strongest or among the strongest in their weight classes.

Bringing up guys like Saitiev is DEAD wrong, Saitiev is a ridiculous outlier and one of the reasons he is the GOAT is because he wasn't one of the strongest or even close. And he's VERY strong FOR HIS SIZE. Definitely not lacking in that department. He also has other physical attributes that make up for his strength deficiencies.

HOW MANY WORD CLASS OR EVEN BEST IN THEIR NATIONS LANKY LIKE SAITIEV?

Ben Askren is an outlier also, but when he lost to Pendleton and got dominated by Fundora he lost to a wrestler who was much shorter and much STRONGER than he was.

THERE IS A REASON WRESTLERS ARE STEREOTYPICALLY SHORT AND STRONG

The people built with that body type are the generally the most successful in wrestling.

To summarize: but the dude is just wrong

The reason for the U.S lagging behind is

1) We don't focus on freestyle, rule differences are huge, our Olympians now a days besides a few talented at both were not D-1 champs, look at Jamill Kelly for an extreme example, I could list more. Techniques and style are much different between the sports.

2) Young wrestlers there have access to world champs and great training facilities. Just like how Europe has better soccer players because they have youth academies. Same with wrestling and soccer in the U.S, no academies and it's not as popular as American Football or Baseball so it has no chance of being great.

3) Other countries actually pay their wrestlers especially in Iran and former Soviet Union countries. Saitiev is friends with the president of RUSSIA FFS! And some billionaires and Chechen president.

Wrestlers there are HEROES and you can become famous for being a great.

Tradition plays a big role in shaping sports in ways money can't.

Same way South Africa, Australia, and New Zeanland dominate Rugby as well as England and Argentina is an outlier.

This whole technique thing is dumb, you want to tell the U.S Olympians they have bad technique? No. you don't.

/rant. :mad:
















:redface::icon_chee
 
down with folkstyle.

fouriff....



I am disappointed in you....




Freestyle "wrestling" isn't real wrestling there I said it.


The ridiculous rule changes every other tournament do not embody what people generally think about wrestling.


Wrestling should be about controlling your opponents body and control in general, not exposing your opponents back and intentions.




:icon_twis:icon_evil:icon_twis
 
What's a russian 2 on 1?

Honestly this debate makes monocles appropriate :D
 
Wrestling should be about controlling your opponents body and control in general, not exposing your opponents back and intentions.

5 POINT THROWS



What's a russian 2 on 1?

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