Karo's no-gi Judo

[rmongler]

Such eloquent poetry for sherdog.
But I think we need to clarify - body control is one of the hearts of combat.
Grappling arts focus on this, in that sense Judo, freestyle,Greco and catch are all forms of 'wrestling'.
But this is the difference with regards martial arts- awareness of positions for submissions and strikes.
A clueless amateur wrestler who dives in to 'out wrestle' his opponent for a takedown in a fight but leaves his head exposed to a guilotine is akin to a child attempting to enter the man's world of combat.

In this regard, grappling systems designed with submissions in mind such as Judo are already incorporating that, which is why freestyle wrestlers must learn Judo positions (BJJ) to have any chance at being successful.

I think it was said by Olympic freestyle great Mark Schulz that "wrestling, is supposed to be submission wrestling"

Interestingly Schulz says he went 20 minutes with Rickson without getting tapped even not having submission experience. But he had learned a bit from Judo to keep his elbows in and chin tucked and this was enough to keep him safe.

https://www.bjjee.com/bjj-news/wres...tz-promoted-to-bjj-black-belt-by-pedro-sauer/

In that his point was made, and the history of freestyle in being a watered down version of catch originally supports this. Although I would say that safely controlling and throwing your opponent is an integral part of this also.

This is why one cannot stand seeing a BJJ tourney where one guy is clinging onto an arm while lifted upside down - oblivious to the fact he can be slammed into his head on the floor, utterly ridiculous and as unbalanced as a martial rookie freestyle wrestler leaving his neck open to a choke.

Judo, catch, and wrestlers trained in submissions present the natural return to what grappling was always supposed to be.

That's all fine enough, but the real point is the emotional animus underlaying the dynamic; vituperative 'nerds' who want to get their rocks off by counter-signaling against 'jocks' (who are usually good honest folk much preferable to have as a friend and comrade in life than such sorts of poisonous backbiters). 'Clueless amateurs' indeed.

 

[Normot]

I've always hated Karos overhead lat grab. I much prefer overhooks, underhooks and bodylocks. Can't argue with his success, but I think that kind of grip helps if you have stupid strong Eastern European grip strength and can pull off the kimura from there.


The judo va wrestling debate is dumb. You know who wins between a great wrestler and great Judoka? The one who's striking sucks slightly less.

 

[Kforcer]

That's all fine enough, but the real point is the emotional animus underlaying the dynamic; vituperative 'nerds' who want to get their rocks off by counter-signaling against 'jocks' (who are usually good honest folk much preferable to have as a partner in training and friend in life than such sorts of poisonous backbiters). 'Clueless amateurs' indeed.

I'm not going to call him a nerd or whatever, but The Master's comments about amateur wrestlers were definitely ridiculous. The whole thing about them being clueless amateurs who would just be feeding people their necks or whatever.

Yeah, I wish it was that easy to dispose of high level wrestlers.

 

[TheMaster]

That's all fine enough, but the real point is the emotional animus underlaying the dynamic; vituperative 'nerds' who want to get their rocks off by counter-signaling against 'jocks' (who are usually good honest folk much preferable to have as a partner in training and friend in life than such sorts of poisonous backbiters). 'Clueless amateurs' indeed.

Sure, but let's not elevate said 'jocks' to the level of ostentacious nobility or call them solely ' good folk'. They vary greatly in character just as in any endeavor and many such 'good folk' exist in all martial arts.

But the heart of martial arts is the opposite of the huge burly guy, so often seen in wrestling like a Rulon Gardner who can out muscle his opponent. Using the science of greater knowledge to outmanouver and outwit the larger opponent, epitomized by when a lean Brazilian survived and choked out a much larger wrestler, or when a smaller guy throws a larger one with leverage is the martial way such as when David slayed Goliath.

Yes there is tough training and noble character development involved in all good arts, but opening the door of knowledge into these arts represented by Judo and submissions allows any of them to compete at all.

Judo, 'the gentle way' and the code of ethics that Jigoro Kano espoused represents the current that is forever the symbol of the core of martial arts. Almost all who have ever been successful in MMA have been initiated into his system or derivative one way or another as fitting demonstration of this, a claim few if any other systems can make.

 

[tekkenfan]

Sure, but let's not elevate said 'jocks' to the level of austentacious nobility or call them solely ' good folk'. They vary greatly in character just as in any endeavor and many such 'good folk' exist in all martial arts.

But the heart of martial arts is the opposite of the huge burly guy, so often seen in wrestling like a Rulon Gardner who can out muscle his opponent. Using the science of greater knowledge to outmanouver and outwit the larger opponent, epitomized by when a lean Brazilian survived and choked out a much larger wrestler, or when a smaller guy throws a larger one with leverage is the martial way such as when David slayed Goliath.

Yes there is tough training and noble character development involved in all good arts, but opening the door of knowledge into these arts represented by Judo and submissions allows any of them to compete at all.

Judo, 'the gentle way' and the code of ethics that Jigoro Kano espoused represents the current that is forever the symbol of the core of martial arts. Almost all who have ever been successful in MMA have been initiated into his system or derivative one way or another as fitting demonstration of this, a claim few if any other systems can make.

im sure most people would rather be a jock than a skinny jean man bun hipster with a pokemon rashguard at 30

 

[rmongler]

Sure, but let's not elevate said 'jocks' to the level of ostentacious nobility or call them solely ' good folk'. They vary greatly in character just as in any endeavor and many such 'good folk' exist in all martial arts.

But the heart of martial arts is the opposite of the huge burly guy, so often seen in wrestling like a Rulon Gardner who can out muscle his opponent. Using the science of greater knowledge to outmanouver and outwit the larger opponent, epitomized by when a lean Brazilian survived and choked out a much larger wrestler, or when a smaller guy throws a larger one with leverage is the martial way such as when David slayed Goliath.

Yes there is tough training and noble character development involved in all good arts, but opening the door of knowledge into these arts represented by Judo and submissions allows any of them to compete at all.

Judo, 'the gentle way' and the code of ethics that Jigoro Kano espoused represents the current that is forever the symbol of the core of martial arts. Almost all who have ever been successful in MMA have been initiated into his system or derivative one way or another as fitting demonstration of this, a claim few if any other systems can make.

You are a hopeless stereotype, but you can at least take comfort that you are not as hopelessly stereotypical as the likes of creatures like stanclarker or so on.

 

[TheMaster]

You are a hopeless stereotype, but you can at least take comfort that you are not as hopelessly stereotypical as the likes of creatures like stanclarker or so on.

No my friend, you are hopelessly and unwittingly caught in the art of mental stereotype making. But if you get comfort or solace from that process may you continue drinking from that bottomless cup to console yourself.
Some of us need that Punch and Judy show to watch afterall.

 

[rmongler]

No my friend, you are hopelessly and unwittingly caught in the art of mental stereotype making. But if you get comfort or solace from that process may you continue drinking from that bottomless cup to console yourself.
Some of us need that Punch and Judy show to watch afterall.

Slimy eel mad he got correctly pattern-matched as a slimy eel lol.

 

[TheMaster]

Slimy eel mad he got correctly pattern-matched as a slimy eel lol.

Not sure what your agenda is, but seems you got majorly triggered by something. I suggest you look at it.

This was and is a thread about no-Gi Judo.
Then you randomly did your Thoreau piece about wrestling. I disputed it and then you descended to name calling, spectacularly failing within the span of a few hours and a few posts to live up to even a fraction of a pedestal of the image you wanted to create in your earlier prose piece about the 'noble sinewy art of glorious manliness of wrestlethon' or some s###

You have issues.

But it doesn't change the reality. Wrestling historically and in the US in particular was associated with rough n tumble and gouging matches- anything but the noble core of combat.
Perhaps another culture like the Greeks practiced a closer pure form that was not degenerate, or at least the image of that was what inspired Greco in the modern era. It became more honorable as a collglegiate sport, yet losing much of the combative aspect.

But it was undoubtedly Judo, and the image of honor ,discipline and respect that entailed that status of 'Budo' that is the foundation of the modern martial way seen around the world today.

 

[rmongler]

Let's take a look here.

Sure, but let's not elevate said 'jocks' to the level of ostentacious nobility or call them solely ' good folk'. They vary greatly in character just as in any endeavor and many such 'good folk' exist in all martial arts.

But the heart of martial arts is the opposite of the huge burly guy, so often seen in wrestling like a Rulon Gardner who can out muscle his opponent. Using the science of greater knowledge to outmanouver and outwit the larger opponent, epitomized by when a lean Brazilian survived and choked out a much larger wrestler, or when a smaller guy throws a larger one with leverage is the martial way such as when David slayed Goliath.

Yes there is tough training and noble character development involved in all good arts, but opening the door of knowledge into these arts represented by Judo and submissions allows any of them to compete at all.

Judo, 'the gentle way' and the code of ethics that Jigoro Kano espoused represents the current that is forever the symbol of the core of martial arts. Almost all who have ever been successful in MMA have been initiated into his system or derivative one way or another as fitting demonstration of this, a claim few if any other systems can make.

Says he agrees, then in the very next breath proceeds to demonstrate his embodiment of all the stereotypes about the sort of backbiting shittalking dweebery that was being criticised in the first place, complete with all the hoary old mcdojo marketing myths and sound-bites repeated with totally unironic credulity.

I suppose we can tack on doubling-down along with a comical lack of self-awareness in the perpetration of all this as well.

That's gonna be a lol there, lol.

 

[TheMaster]

Let's take a look here.

Says he agrees, then in the very next breath proceeds to demonstrate his embodiment of all the stereotypes about the sort of backbiting shittalking dweebery that was being criticised in the first place, complete with all the hoary old mcdojo marketing myths and sound-bites repeated with totally unironic credulity.

I suppose we can tack on doubling-down along with a comical lack of self-awareness in the perpetration of all this as well.

That's gonna be a lol there, lol.

Seriously, whatever dude.

And I look forward to your next post, thesaurus and dictionary in hand looking for the next intelligent sounding 'big word' you can muster to demonstrate to all how adult and grown up you are using proper non- predictive text language and appropriate synonyms.

But regardless of u repeating the same inane 'mcdojo' and 'cliche' diatribes, it doesn't change the premise or the facts of the statements.

Universally almost all successful MMA fighters have been initiated into the art of Judo, or one of it's derivatives.

The principles of Judo educate millions of children and adults around the world in martial virtues and a system that promotes health and can be used in reality.

There is no comparable system out there that can make anything close to these claims.

I'd say these two facts alone are a pretty unsurpassable tribute to Kano and the system of the 'gentle way' that he founded.

 

[rmongler]

'A wrestler succeeds at wrestling by being more rough and tumble than the other guy'; translates too: 'i dont understand what im looking at when i see masters at work'.

 

[judoka loca]

Both wrestling and judo are good and both will still help regardless of gi or ruleset.

That's it. I solved the problem.

 

[CFGroup]

Go do a few hundred uchikomi entries no gi, then talk about that.

Don't talk about judo this, wrestling that.

Sucking down some Java before going and doing exactly that for a couple of hours.

And yup I'm old so I train pre 2008 Morote Gari still.

 

[shunyata]

Sucking down some Java before going and doing exactly that for a couple of hours.

And yup I'm old so I train pre 2008 Morote Gari still.

That was the great thing about Hayastan. Freedom. No one cared if you do morote gari, no one cared about ijf leg grab nonsense or ibjjf knee reap nonsense. If you wanted to use the cage wall on the side of the room to defend or get up, you could. If you wanted to wear a gi jacket with board shorts to gi class, you could.

And heel hooks are taught at white belt.









I wish you powerful and plentiful uchikomi.


I'm entertaining the idea of going old school and setting up a sand barrel in the yard to footsweep.

 

[Kforcer]

One of the greatest wrestlers of all-time, Yojiro Uetake, was actually apparently discouraged from judo because he was too small. And so he went on to become of the best NCAA wrestlers ever and certainly Japan's top freestyle wrestlers of all-time. Interesting to think of, if there really is anyone in this thread doubting how technical wrestling is or its ability to serve as a means of instruction and development for youth.

I can't think that anyone who actually did wrestle would ever think that.

 

[Kforcer]

'A wrestler succeeds at wrestling by being more rough and tumble than the other guy'; translates too: 'i dont understand what im looking at when i see masters at work'.

I think he was referring to the "rough and tumble" style of wrestling that existed during Abraham Lincoln's time, that Lincoln was actually a champion of. I don't think he was using the term to characterize contemporary freestyle or scholastic wrestling. Although, his ideas about wrestling definitely seem out of wack. Hey, there are plenty of wrestlers with out of wack ideas about other forms of grappling. So maybe he's just balancing things out.

 

[CFGroup]

That was the great thing about Hayastan. Freedom. No one cared if you do morote gari, no one cared about ijf leg grab nonsense or ibjjf knee reap nonsense. If you wanted to use the cage wall on the side of the room to defend or get up, you could. If you wanted to wear a gi jacket with board shorts to gi class, you could.

And heel hooks are taught at white belt.









I wish you powerful and plentiful uchikomi.


I'm entertaining the idea of going old school and setting up a sand barrel in the yard to footsweep.

Sand barrel's a good idea!

I use to have a plastic 5 gallon bucket I'd fill with water, put it on a towel and slide that around on hardwood floors. Depending on what I was focused on like strength fill it more, speed fill it less so it slides easier on impact. I couldn't part with my old army tent I have in a nylon bag I use for grip swings. Started swinging that around as soon as I could after surgery.

Right now I'm focused on control and speed. Slowing my feet down and re refining my hip turns. I still have a reluctance to commit all of my weight on my left side so I wanted to really build that zero thought, all instinct trust for those weight bearing moments. My favorite coach back in the day right at 5th Kyu use to make us drill minutia relentlessly, so it's in my DNA and I'm paying tribute to Chris in going over this stuff hundreds of times while out of the new dojo.

Dammit I forgot my other two UchiMata drills yesterday, I knew I forgot something! Got distracted by the Kosoto set.....

Lockdown solo Uchikomi is actually a great cardio workout. I thought I wouldn't be able to get a good workout, but using that Moroti Gari as a modified lunge set is working great!

 

[Q_mystic-0]

Anyone trained this?

https://nogi-judo.com/


Would like to see no-gi Judo take off more.

Karo's students like Neil Melanson seem to be having big success even without a competition background.

Shame that Karo himself doesn't seem to get the recognition he deserves as a coach.

Hi Master. Why would you want to see no-gi judo take off?

There is plenty of no-gi judo. Here is what you do. You go to your 2-4 judo sessions each week and then add one time/week into a wrestling or no-gi bjj class. You work your judo there and you will figure it out. They would always love to have you, so long as you are training with the ones at or above your level.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

tbh certain things just dont work well in no gi judo especially when comes to mma

o uchi gari the wrestling inside trip way is much better i feel dropping all way down with knee i feel judo guys when they lock up dont feel near as tight as wrestlers do they like to get wrist control a single underhook ad at times collar ties from what i see u rarely see any of the big counter throws like tai toshi mostly u see uchi mata harai goshi or seio nage type throws u dont see other throws outside of those hardly at pro mma level

i just feel if u wana be a no gi takedown guy its best to learn wrestling as wrestlers have better control judo guys like to stand taller wrestlers have lower center of gravity on average so they will have the advantage

Yes as a judo guy it is not easy getting your hips close to your appanyent in freestyle wrestling. The wrestlers have the hunch over low stance.