Kamaru Usman never surpassed Matt Hughes

[Soggust]

But even with the argument that title defenses aren't everything...Matt Hughes was 41-4 at one point in his career. Surely that counts for something, like Usman's win streak..

I'm a Khabib guy. You don't have to convince me to include non-UFC wins haha

Also when you're talking about GOAT discussion title wins tend to be the main point of discussion. There's guys with crazy win streaks who don't get put in the GOAT discussion for their weight class because they were never champion, like Tony Ferguson. And win for win, Cowboy and Poirier have twice the resume that Khabib does. But the fact that they were never champion precludes them from the GOAT LW discussion.

Sure, but that's not applicable in this situation. This isn't a guy who had a great streak but couldn't win the big one. He has 5 title defenses lol. It should matter, no doubt, and it's a strong point for Hughes imo.

But it's not the entire argument to most folks.

But to penalize Hughes for not fighting 10 prior UFC fights before getting the title shot ignores the historical circumstances.

But conversely, you are punishing Usman by excluding all of the work that was required to get him to the same title opportunity. This is why title wins can't be everything.

It's not that Hughes doesn't have a legitimate argument over Usman. Without really thinking about it and looking through their records, on the surface before entering the thread, I would have said it's a fair take on either side.

 

[pankrat]

Smart people judge fighters based on what they did for the sport at the time

Yet you dont even acknowledge Hughes wasnt fighting in the premier org at the time - unlike Usman - and wasnt fighting the best guys his size with the same legitimacy Usman has been doing.

Which suggest that you are eithher not "smat people", or you are very ignorant about the landscape of the sport back then.

 

[pankrat]

But to penalize Hughes for not fighting 10 prior UFC fights before getting the title shot ignores the historical circumstances..

Ignoring historical circunstamces is acting as if Hughes didnt get submitted twice by Hallman and KOed by Pelé Landi, one of the many top guys his size that Hughes didnt have to face because there was another organization around throwing better money to them while UFC prefered to invest on few posterboys while saving money on challengers because they didnt have a penny

 

[Poirierfan]

Matt was super dominant back in the day. I was lucky enough to seem him fight in person before he became champ. However, he was still major asshole though. Ha, I like Usman way more and I don't even care for Usman.

 

[Xanzito]

thats right but the fighters that usman fought was far better than hughes
far harder
matt hughes wont be even top 10 today

I mean, after the accident, that's a tough ask.

 

[Davidjacksonjones]

Matt was super dominant back in the day. I was lucky enough to seem him fight in person before he became champ. However, he was still major asshole though. Ha, I like Usman way more and I don't even care for Usman.

I think Matt Hughes had an autobiography and a did a lot of bad shit that people started to hate him for. There were even threads about it

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/examples-of-matt-hughes-being-a-bad-person.3963693/

 

[achoo42]

Yet you dont even acknowledge Hughes wasnt fighting in the premier org at the time - unlike Usman -

But which org had the best welterweights? There wasn't even a dedicated 170 division in Pride so why is this argument relevant?

and wasnt fighting the best guys his size with the same legitimacy Usman has been doing.

Which ones of Matt Hughes' wins weren't among the best guys his size? I listed their Fight Matrix rankings at the time of the fight, do you have a rebuttal for them?

If you mean natural LWs like BJ Penn and Sean Sherk, the same could be said that Masvidal and Colby were lightweights who didn't want to cut.

 

[Poirierfan]

I think Matt Hughes had an autobiography and a did a lot of bad shit that people started to hate him for. There were even threads about it

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/examples-of-matt-hughes-being-a-bad-person.3963693/

Yup, I remember that, he's a cunt and a bully.

 

[Billthebutcher]

Matt never surpassed that freight train

 

[Fioretti]

Fight Matrix is not great.

Fight Matrix is shit*

 

[pankrat]

But which org had the best welterweights? There wasn't even a dedicated 170 division in Pride so why is this argument relevant?
.

Confirmation that you dont have a clue about the landscape back then.

Just because other orgs didnt have a 170lbs division doesnt mean there werent fighters of Hughes capable of challenging for his tittle. There werent standarized weigthclasses as there is today.
Some had 180, other 175, others 165, etc. Others not even any of those. It was all over the place.

Of course there were fighters from Brazil, Japan or Russia who could challenge for his tittle. They simply werent getting an offer from UFC, or they did coming off a loss, as Sakurai

The moment Bustamante vacated the UFC MW belt to go fight Pride for better money, automatically he didnt qualify as a top MW? Because he went to fight for Pride at 205? That's the stance you are taking here.

Which ones of Matt Hughes' wins weren't among the best guys his size? I listed their Fight Matrix rankings at the time of the fight, do you have a rebuttal for them?

If you mean natural LWs like BJ Penn and Sean Sherk, the same could be said that Masvidal and Colby were lightweights who didn't want to cut.

Further confirmation that you dont know about the sport back then.
FightMatrix was created in 2008, and is dramatically flawed for anything that happened in the sport before that time. It isnot very reliable even for modern MMA, but to reference FightMatrix for anything from early-mid '00s basically disqualifies you from any serious discussion tbh

 

[pankrat]

If you mean natural LWs like BJ Penn and Sean Sherk, the same could be said that Masvidal and Colby were lightweights who didn't want to cut.

I was rather talking about natural WWs - at least as much natural WWs as Hughes was and that actually weighted in fight night about as much as Hughes did - but who weren't fighting at 170 simply because they werent getting an offer from UFC to fight in their 170 division, which was the only org with a serious circuit at such particular exact weight limit.
They were often fighting under superior weight limits.

To just ignore them all simply because UFC didnt want to pay them to challenge their American posterboy champion is UFC bias to the nauseum. To not even consider this landscape in a comparison with Usman - who didnt have such protection from UFC - is obscenely unfair

 

[achoo42]

Of course there were fighters from Brazil, Japan or Russia who could challenge for his tittle. What a coindicen Hughes didnt fight a single one of them, only American.

But he literally did. He smashed Hayato Sakurai into oblivion. And he beat Renato Verissimo, who was clearly on the route to a title shot.

FightMatrix was created in 2008, and is dramatically flawed for anything that happened in the sport before that time. It isnot very reliable even for modern MMA, but to reference FightMatrix for anything from early-mid '00s basically disqualifies you from any serious discussion tbh

I used FightMatrix because it was an easy way to get some historical perspective on the fights for their time. That's all.

Just because other orgs didnt have a 170lbs division doesnt mean there wasnt anybody of Hughes size who was a top fighter. There werent' standarized weigthclasses as there is today.
...
To just ignore them all simple because UFC didnt want to pay them to challeng thei American posterboy champion is UFC bias to the nauseum. To not even consider it in a comparison with Usman - who didnt have such protection from UFC - is obscenely unfair

If you want to really compare wins, then just ask yourself: Is Jorge Masvidal a better win than Sean Sherk? Is Colby a better win than BJ Penn? Is a gunshy Woodley better than a newbie GSP? Is Burns a better win than Sakurai or Frank Trigg? I think most of them are around the same level of achievement.

That's all you need to ask. If you think that Usman's wins are better, then say so. I hate how you dance around the main subject. If Matt Hughes could have been fighting better guys, than so be it. But that doesn't change the quality of the fights he did take.

 

[VAfan]

hughes doesn't get enough credit for his run these days. IMO it's mostly recency bias, people don't remember how good his opponents were and how dominant he looked at his peak.

 

[pankrat]

But he literally did. He smashed Hayato Sakurai into oblivion.

Nah, obviously you dont comprehend.

He fought Sakurai coming of a loss in another org only because Pride offered the winner (Silva) a better offer than UFC. Not for any othe reason. Do you understand this? It's not that hard, dude

It would be like Usman defending his tittle vs a guy coming off a loss in PFL because the winner received a better offer from Bellator so he signed for them and UFC had to conform with the loser.

Same for Pele after KOing Hughes himself ¡! in another org. By your obscenely biased/simpleton logic, Pele wasnt a top WW even after KOing Hughes simply because UFC didnt want to match Pride offer and Pride didnt have a 170lbs division. Hence Pele doesnt exist as a top WW. That's basically your line of thinking.

You are like a textbook example of how UFC propaganda can manipulate people minds lol. Hope you arent like that when decicing your vote in elections lol

And he beat Renato Verissimo, who was clearly on the route to a title shot..

lol Verissimo. UFC sold him to you as #1 WW and you swallow without even chewing.
It's cute
But you need to get a clue before starting this kind of threads

 

[VAfan]

I think Matt Hughes had an autobiography and a did a lot of bad shit that people started to hate him for. There were even threads about it

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/examples-of-matt-hughes-being-a-bad-person.3963693/

one of the strangest books i've ever read. it's almost like he's trying to make himself look like a total nutcase, like he's trying to make himself look bad. usually someone else does that for you, it's rare to see in an autobiography. i think he's just not bright enough to see how off it was.

 

[knock_you_out]

I agree.

 

[AmbassadorFright]

Matt Hughes would be Belal Muhammed/Brady level today.

Meanwhile Usman is the #2 GOAT WW

Belal might be champ level so I'm not sure that's what you intended to say

 

[AmbassadorFright]

I think it's debatable. Hughes does have the edge in title defenses and a far longer career but with that a lot more blemishes. They also fought in different eras. I'd say they have an equal resumé when context is taken to account. Hughes beat very green versions of GSP and BJ who he'd later lose to, Sherk, Royce and Newton (who while good when on his A game suffered from being horrible inconsistent). Usman beat Woodley, who went on to get destroyed in every fight following, very green versions of Sean Strickland and Leon Edwards (who he later lost to), Colby and Gilbert Burns. Fighting Masvidal twice really hurt his stock as Masvidal was never a legitimate contender. You could make an argument for either being the 2nd best

 

[caesar]

The fight where he was unconscious is that the newton fight? Wow lol

The problem was Newron was out as well when Hughes slammed him on his head,...should have been ruled a no contest.
They gave Hughes the win because he was unconscious on top, while Newton was out cold on the bottom.
Yeah top control lol...