kagato jime=gogoplata??????????

[Shadowdean]

One of the problems with pulling down on the head on a choke is that you may get called for trying to crank the neck in judo.

 

[Rod1]

Sorry for bringing this from the grave but i got a new account so ill just point out one thing.

The reason why there is no shoulder trapping or head pulling is because judo newaza comes from a time where judo was more brutal, the mats used to be harder and more importantly, there was no rule against slamming anyone, so this caused people to focuse on breaking the base of the opponent, rather than curling up on him.

In the B&W example to finish the technique, the free leg is going to be pushing uke's by the knee therefore forcing uke to bend his back backwards opening up the chin and allowing a quick submission. If he were to attempt a BJJ approach in older rules it could lead to slamming but in modern rules its harder because you need to be lift an inch for the referee to call a stop and therefore your technique is wasted.

This was one of my favorites of my sensei, he had a fast and good yoko tomoe nage, and when that failed he usually ended up in his guard of which he was very good for judo standards.

 

[Il Wop-O]

remember, the Japanese invented all of that

Or maybe the Greeks!

Never any love for the original submission grapplers! Alexander's armies wound up in India, you know. Judo/Ju Jutsu supposedly came to Japan from China by way of India.

Coincidence?

 

[Il Wop-O]

yep both are shin choke tho the kagato is gi and gogoplatas are no gi (maybe even in BJJ gi its gogoplata)

I just view it as variations of the same. Kagato Jime is shin choke with cross lapel grips, gogoplata is with head control and secondary leg over the shoulder. And Eddie Bravo has his version wherein you grab your toes.

I bet wrestlers and Judoka don't spend a lot of energy disputing the harai goshi and a wrestlers hip toss.

 

[Ryo]

Or maybe the Greeks!

Never any love for the original submission grapplers! Alexander's armies wound up in India, you know. Judo/Ju Jutsu supposedly came to Japan from China by way of India.

Coincidence?

Uh.. yes? He went into to India, but certainly did not conquer them. China and India have had there own systems of wrestling and boxing since before Alexander or even the Greeks existed.

 

[Il Wop-O]

Uh.. yes? He went into to India, but certainly did not conquer them. China and India have had there own systems of wrestling and boxing since before Alexander or even the Greeks existed.

Well, of course!?! Every society on Earth since antiquity had a system of striking and grappling. That's nothing profound. I just like to throw the Greek theory out there whenever people get so intent on the Japanese origins for every fistic/wrestling technique in existence. Just for grins, really. Because, as I'm sure you know, there is a fairly well stocked bunch of Greek literature and artifacture that show Greek wrestling to have been a very advanced combatives system with a large variety of throws, arm and leg entaglements and strangulation techniques. The Greeks and Spartans certainly incorporated it into their military, so it is not outside of the realm of possibility that , indiginous styles notwithstanding, the Greeks could have influenced Asian martial culture.

And what do you mean "before the Greeks even existed" - as a nation-state or as a Mediteranean people? Because I would find it hard to believe that their systemized martial art predated the Mediteranean people, or their ability to make a fist and bludgeon another Mediteranean person. Obviously, all of those arts predated Alexander, both Greek and Asian.