Jump to guard?

[georgejjr]

People pull guard frequently in the Mundials as well as Abu Dhabi. Those competitors might not all be olympic caliber judoka or wrestlers, but I'm sure they have some pretty damn good standing skills for the most part.

I'm not sure about Mundials, but in ADCC pulling guard is becoming less frequent all the time, as competitors' standup skills have been improving. And in MMA pulling guard has become downright rare, because people learned to defend against it.

No matter how good you are standing, it's impossible to stop a guard pull. Jumping guard, yes this is very possible to stop. But if someone wants to pull guard on you, he WILL. It's not difficult to grab a sleeve, foot on the hip and simply lay back.

Actually it's pretty easy to stop a guard pull, you just strip the grip. Foot on hip and lay back isn't close to being enough to pull a trained grapper down, most competitive guys can stand up all day under those circumstances, and they only need a second to strip the grip (often not even that long - the really good guys strip the grip as soon as you get it). In fact, if you go to the judo forums you'll read a lot of old time judoka complaining about how much competition judo has turned into grip fighting experts who strip grips so fast no one can throw.

Compounding this, if the guard pull is the only move you have (ie you have no other takedowns or throws) its trivial to stop. Mind you, if you only have one throw or takedown, it doesn't matter what it is, its easy to stop. Good takedowns usually come because your opponent has to worry about a number of possibilities. Its like sweeps on the ground - if I can only do one sweep, how long is it going to take you to figure out how to avoid or counter it? The same thing happens with takedowns, people adapt, especially between tournaments.

The exception is under some rules where stripping the grip and backing out is considered avoiding contact and is penalized (ie you're supposed to follow to the ground). If you're fighting under those rules then yes, its hard to stop a guard pull, simply because as soon as your opponent sits down with a hand on you you're obliged to follow, even if you can easily back off and strip the grip.

BTW, against someone with good grip fighting its almost impossible to get a grip strong enough to do anything unless you're very good at it yourself - if you've ever worked with a guy like the Canadian national judo coach (and double olympic medalist) Nick Gill you'll know what I mean. Even olympic level matches often go almost the full five minutes without either guy getting any sort of grip - makes for boring matches and referees will penalize it for defensive fighting sometimes, but it shows you how hard it can be to get a strong enough grip to do anything (like pull someone down). We've got a few guys in the club I never get a decent grip on, though I think my technique is better in other ways (and I think they'd lose by defensive fighting penalties if we fought in competition ... at least that's what I tell them :icon_chee).

 

[Deloitte]

I'm not sure about Mundials, but in ADCC pulling guard is becoming less frequent all the time, as competitors' standup skills have been improving. And in MMA pulling guard has become downright rare, because people learned to defend against it.



Actually it's pretty easy to stop a guard pull, you just strip the grip. Foot on hip and lay back isn't close to being enough to pull a trained grapper down, most competitive guys can stand up all day under those circumstances, and they only need a second to strip the grip (often not even that long - the really good guys strip the grip as soon as you get it). In fact, if you go to the judo forums you'll read a lot of old time judoka complaining about how much competition judo has turned into grip fighting experts who strip grips so fast no one can throw.

Compounding this, if the guard pull is the only move you have (ie you have no other takedowns or throws) its trivial to stop. Mind you, if you only have one throw or takedown, it doesn't matter what it is, its easy to stop. Good takedowns usually come because your opponent has to worry about a number of possibilities. Its like sweeps on the ground - if I can only do one sweep, how long is it going to take you to figure out how to avoid or counter it? The same thing happens with takedowns, people adapt, especially between tournaments.

The exception is under some rules where stripping the grip and backing out is considered avoiding contact and is penalized (ie you're supposed to follow to the ground). If you're fighting under those rules then yes, its hard to stop a guard pull, simply because as soon as your opponent sits down with a hand on you you're obliged to follow, even if you can easily back off and strip the grip.

BTW, against someone with good grip fighting its almost impossible to get a grip strong enough to do anything unless you're very good at it yourself - if you've ever worked with a guy like the Canadian national judo coach (and double olympic medalist) Nick Gill you'll know what I mean. Even olympic level matches often go almost the full five minutes without either guy getting any sort of grip - makes for boring matches and referees will penalize it for defensive fighting sometimes, but it shows you how hard it can be to get a strong enough grip to do anything (like pull someone down). We've got a few guys in the club I never get a decent grip on, though I think my technique is better in other ways (and I think they'd lose by defensive fighting penalties if we fought in competition ... at least that's what I tell them :icon_chee).

You are coming from a judo background for god sake and you are trying to convince us you've encountered a lot of guard pulling in the sport of judo. Pulling guard is the as easy as dropping to your back, it can hardly be compared to a complex throw. Pulling guard doesn't mean your opponent has to go to the ground with you, you can play guard while your opponent is standing over you. Of course coming from a Judo background there is very frequent occasions of guard pulling. Then again, maybe open guard, x guard, butterfly guard, sitting guard, and etc is too complex for a Judoka with limited "newaza" exposure.

 

[GannonTheCannon]

I just started trianing in bjj recently and in one of our classes I jumped to guard and misfired, landed painfully on my back. Anyone have advice on the basics on how to properly grab, timing etc, jumping technique and appropriate distance to go for it?

step 1 - grow balls

step 2 - learn to wrestle

step 3 - slam opponent on head, then jump to "reverse guard" - more commonly known as mount

 

[greghead]

my standup sucks right now, so when i compete and can tell a guy is good on his feet i'd much rather jump guard and not lose any points for a takedown.

in practice, i never jump guard though because I NEED to get better.

anyway, jumping guard is no problem as long as you have some control. the neck and an arm, underhooks, etc... just make sure you get your legs up high in your opponents armpits.

 

[sdbb]

we did start from the knees thou

I love pulling guard from that position.

 

[Yojimbo]

I'm not sure about Mundials, but in ADCC pulling guard is becoming less frequent all the time, as competitors' standup skills have been improving. And in MMA pulling guard has become downright rare, because people learned to defend against it.

You don't see pulling guard in ADCC as much as Mundials because you are deducted a point for pulling guard in ADCC. You will still see it from time to time though.

 

[batman69]

You don't see pulling guard in ADCC as much as Mundials because you are deducted a point for pulling guard in ADCC. You will still see it from time to time though.

actually you lose the point only after the half way point of the match when the points start counting. for the first five minutes it's a no point submission wins situation.

 

[batman69]

step 1 - grow balls

step 2 - learn to wrestle

step 3 - slam opponent on head, then jump to "reverse guard" - more commonly known as mount

so he should slam his training partner on his head? good advice, i'd say what i really think of your brilliant advice but i'd rather not get dubs for fighter bashing.

 

[furdog]

Actually it's pretty easy to stop a guard pull, you just strip the grip. Foot on hip and lay back isn't close to being enough to pull a trained grapper down, most competitive guys can stand up all day under those circumstances, and they only need a second to strip the grip (often not even that long - the really good guys strip the grip as soon as you get it). In fact, if you go to the judo forums you'll read a lot of old time judoka complaining about how much competition judo has turned into grip fighting experts who strip grips so fast no one can throw.

Then this would apply to all throws and not just pulling guard. Therefore you really have no point against pulling guard as such, but all take down methods that can be stopped by effective grip fighting.

 

[georgejjr]

You are coming from a judo background for god sake and you are trying to convince us you've encountered a lot of guard pulling in the sport of judo. Pulling guard is the as easy as dropping to your back, it can hardly be compared to a complex throw. Pulling guard doesn't mean your opponent has to go to the ground with you, you can play guard while your opponent is standing over you. Of course coming from a Judo background there is very frequent occasions of guard pulling. Then again, maybe open guard, x guard, butterfly guard, sitting guard, and etc is too complex for a Judoka with limited "newaza" exposure.

I started out in wrestling and then judo, but I've been doing BJJ for the last couple of years (mainly as part of MMA). You're right, you don't see pulling guard in judo. You do see it some in MMA though ... but you see it less and less because it is easy to avoid, and almost everyone knows how to avoid it now.

Even in terms of pure BJJ its becoming less common, I help the local BJJ club teach standup technique (they're probably as interested in my wrestling background as my judo, but that's a different issue), and we do standing scrimmaging (randori if you will) with BJJ rules. One of the first things I teach is how to avoid a guard pull - most students pick it up pretty quickly. Yes, you can always pull guard so you're on your back, but its generally not considered a guard of any kind (open, x, butterfly or you name it) if you have no contact with your opponent, which is what generally happens. In our club that's considered a failed guard pull, maybe where you train its still considered successful even if there's no contact because you are on the ground even if your opponent is standing up five feet away from you.

So yes, you can always drop to your back. But your opponent can always just watch you from the other side of the mat as well. In MMA the referee will just stand you up for your trouble, in submission grappling it depends upon the rules what happens next.

Then this would apply to all throws and not just pulling guard. Therefore you really have no point against pulling guard as such, but all take down methods that can be stopped by effective grip fighting.

Actually that's true. The problem is that most people who learn takedowns and throws learn a number of different ones coming from a lot of different grips ... the shot, underhooks, etc and how to setup combinations), but a lot of folks who work on pulling and jumping to guard never learn how to do anything else. It doesn't have to be that way, but it seems to be common, possibly because pulling guard works well at first, when you're going against beginners. There's nothing wrong with having a guard pull as a tool in the tool kit. There's plenty wrong with having it as your main tool.

 

[Deloitte]

step 1 - grow balls

step 2 - learn to wrestle

step 3 - slam opponent on head, then jump to "reverse guard" - more commonly known as mount

Awful advice.

 

[yovan]

I've got a judo background but only train BJJ now.

I've found that it's hard to stop the good, experienced guys from pulling guard, especially with the gi.

The beginners I can stop no problem, and that's the only thing they go for.

But someone else said it best, if that's the only tool in your toolkit, you're fighting at a disadvantage.

If it's your strength, then play to your strength, but I would rather have options in my game.

 

[TacWar]

step 1 - grow balls

step 2 - learn to wrestle

step 3 - slam opponent on head, then jump to "reverse guard" - more commonly known as mount

step 4 - become the biggest asshole in the grappling forum

I sure hope this was just your attempt at being funny and you just aren't funny.

I don't jump guard, but I do agree with pulling guard if you don't think you are going to get the takedown. Lets face it you will always run into someone who is better at takedowns, and I think being able to pull guard is a great skill to have for sub grap competitions

 

[Zankou]

I'm not sure about Mundials, but in ADCC pulling guard is becoming less frequent all the time, as competitors' standup skills have been improving. And in MMA pulling guard has become downright rare, because people learned to defend against it.



Actually it's pretty easy to stop a guard pull, you just strip the grip. Foot on hip and lay back isn't close to being enough to pull a trained grapper down, most competitive guys can stand up all day under those circumstances, and they only need a second to strip the grip (often not even that long - the really good guys strip the grip as soon as you get it). In fact, if you go to the judo forums you'll read a lot of old time judoka complaining about how much competition judo has turned into grip fighting experts who strip grips so fast no one can throw.

Compounding this, if the guard pull is the only move you have (ie you have no other takedowns or throws) its trivial to stop. Mind you, if you only have one throw or takedown, it doesn't matter what it is, its easy to stop. Good takedowns usually come because your opponent has to worry about a number of possibilities. Its like sweeps on the ground - if I can only do one sweep, how long is it going to take you to figure out how to avoid or counter it? The same thing happens with takedowns, people adapt, especially between tournaments.

The exception is under some rules where stripping the grip and backing out is considered avoiding contact and is penalized (ie you're supposed to follow to the ground). If you're fighting under those rules then yes, its hard to stop a guard pull, simply because as soon as your opponent sits down with a hand on you you're obliged to follow, even if you can easily back off and strip the grip.

BTW, against someone with good grip fighting its almost impossible to get a grip strong enough to do anything unless you're very good at it yourself - if you've ever worked with a guy like the Canadian national judo coach (and double olympic medalist) Nick Gill you'll know what I mean. Even olympic level matches often go almost the full five minutes without either guy getting any sort of grip - makes for boring matches and referees will penalize it for defensive fighting sometimes, but it shows you how hard it can be to get a strong enough grip to do anything (like pull someone down). We've got a few guys in the club I never get a decent grip on, though I think my technique is better in other ways (and I think they'd lose by defensive fighting penalties if we fought in competition ... at least that's what I tell them :icon_chee).

Behold, as I pull guard against the winner of the Mundials in my division last year.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XixCtBwIDK8

You don't need good grips if you pull guard like this, which is my favorite way nowadays. You don't need to bring your opponent down with you. You just need any grip whatsoever, and then sit on your ass. There are many ways of pulling guard, and realistically speaking anybody proficient at pulling guard is going to be extremely hard to stop from doing it.

I think judoka tend to think of guard as something more narrow than BJJ guys ... basically as long as you get on your butt and have any part of your opponent's body within reach, you should be good to go from a guard playing perspective. If you HAVE to get closed guard or foot on hip open guard, you may find that more difficult. If you just want to pull any guard you can, however, your opponent is not going to have a good chance at stopping you.

 

[georgejjr]

Behold, as I pull guard against the winner of the Mundials in my division last year.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XixCtBwIDK8

You don't need good grips if you pull guard like this, which is my favorite way nowadays. You don't need to bring your opponent down with you. You just need any grip whatsoever, and then sit on your ass. There are many ways of pulling guard, and realistically speaking anybody proficient at pulling guard is going to be extremely hard to stop from doing it.

I think judoka tend to think of guard as something more narrow than BJJ guys ... basically as long as you get on your butt and have any part of your opponent's body within reach, you should be good to go from a guard playing perspective. If you HAVE to get closed guard or foot on hip open guard, you may find that more difficult. If you just want to pull any guard you can, however, your opponent is not going to have a good chance at stopping you.

I agree with you on the definition of the guard, but watch the clip. You had hands on his sleeves for at least 3 seconds. Against a good grip fighter it wouldn't happen with even one hand, let alone two (and unfortunately I know this because I started judo before grip fighting was a science, and have a damn hard time getting grips on the young guys who are good at it :icon_cry2). I'm lucky to have one hand on a grip for even a second before its stripped.

Moreover, with different rules he could have just backed off while stripping your grips, stretching you out along the ground if necessary. Probably be a penalty in mundials, but legal in a lot of combat sports (such as MMA).

Curiously enough, the BJJ club I work out at goes almost 100% no-gi (they're aiming largely at MMA - which is why they're more interested in my wrestling than my judo, though I think that's a mistake and I'm slowly converting them to the joys of some of the more common judo throws), which makes the problems of pulling guard even worse ... stripping a grip no-gi is if anything faster than with a gi. But a lot of the guys won't try anything but pulling guard, because it works against inexperienced people when you start out. One guy insists on trying it even in the cage, which cost him his last fight (it never worked and his opponent just kept his distance and threw a lot of jabs and leg kicks).

There's nothing inherently wrong with pulling guard if its just one of the things you do, but if its your only move its pretty easy to avoid - something which has become more or less common knowledge in MMA circles. In your fight (and it was a nice win) you could have got the same result or better just by doing a single leg on him while you were at a distance (he was crouched over with his base way too wide, he wouldn't have been able to sprawl from there).

 

[batman69]

I agree with you on the definition of the guard, but watch the clip. You had hands on his sleeves for at least 3 seconds. Against a good grip fighter it wouldn't happen with even one hand, let alone two (and unfortunately I know this because I started judo before grip fighting was a science, and have a damn hard time getting grips on the young guys who are good at it :icon_cry2). I'm lucky to have one hand on a grip for even a second before its stripped.

Moreover, with different rules he could have just backed off while stripping your grips, stretching you out along the ground if necessary. Probably be a penalty in mundials, but legal in a lot of combat sports (such as MMA).

Curiously enough, the BJJ club I work out at goes almost 100% no-gi (they're aiming largely at MMA - which is why they're more interested in my wrestling than my judo, though I think that's a mistake and I'm slowly converting them to the joys of some of the more common judo throws), which makes the problems of pulling guard even worse ... stripping a grip no-gi is if anything faster than with a gi. But a lot of the guys won't try anything but pulling guard, because it works against inexperienced people when you start out. One guy insists on trying it even in the cage, which cost him his last fight (it never worked and his opponent just kept his distance and threw a lot of jabs and leg kicks).

There's nothing inherently wrong with pulling guard if its just one of the things you do, but if its your only move its pretty easy to avoid - something which has become more or less common knowledge in MMA circles. In your fight (and it was a nice win) you could have got the same result or better just by doing a single leg on him while you were at a distance (he was crouched over with his base way too wide, he wouldn't have been able to sprawl from there).

whats funny is that i watched this guy get single legged later and do some crazy flip in the air to land on top of his opponent, as he was being taken down. it made my coach stand there in amazement and made me realize that even if i had won my quarter final match i wouldn't have gone any further than the semi's.

 

[Zankou]

whats funny is that i watched this guy get single legged later and do some crazy flip in the air to land on top of his opponent, as he was being taken down. it made my coach stand there in amazement and made me realize that even if i had won my quarter final match i wouldn't have gone any further than the semi's.

After he beat me, I watched him hurl his next opponent on his head twice with HUGE lateral drops, and was thanking my lucky stars I had pulled guard. I saw him doing pummelling drills before our division, and wanted no part of standing against him.

The reason I'm standing so upright is I wanted to fake being a judoka, so he would be wary of just mowing me down from the start. That's why I bounce around like a spaz, using some boxing-type footwork.

At any rate, that guy was a pleasure to compete against, and I hope to see him again in the purple belt division. He has an outstanding tournament game, conserving energy really well.

 

[thetequilaman]

This is what happens when you pull guard on me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM3vfj-t8jM

You end up on your head.

 

[Zankou]

That's why I don't like to pull closed guard. Because if you don't pull the guy down ... you can end up on your head.

 

[easy tiger]

I like to pull with my grips and one foot on the guy's hips. Go down with that leg on his hip extended, stretching the guy out. At that point you can switch to closed or work from there in an open guard. Also doesn't involve you getting thrown on your head.