Judo techniques: Why don't they beat wrestlers?

[riddleofsteel]

No, its not.

Male mongolians dont place in wrestling, they havent won a single medal in over 30 years, they regularly do get Judo medals.

Lets take the last olympics, Mongolia won a silver and a bronze medal in these olympics in the male division.

Mongolia won nothing on the male wrestling division even despite the fact that wrestling has TWICE the amount of medals available to win.

Some mongolian women have placed, but women wrestling is dominated by Judokas, thats why Japanese women win half the gold medals everytime.

Using medals won almost 50 years ago is as stupid as saying that the USSR was inferior to the USA in wrestling because all those medals won before 1952

In your time frame Mongolian men have won 13 world medals, 5 since 2001 Worlds. I believe Mongolian women have won 15 world level medals in wrestling since 2005.

In that same time frame Mongolian men have won 10 world level medals in judo. Looks like they only have 3 world level medals in women's judo.

Mongolian men rarely compete in greco roman wrestling, no shuffle through FILA's records.


Where is this proof of women judoka's dominating women's freestyle wrestling?

 

[riddleofsteel]

Both Naidan and Pedro trained Judo essentially their whole lives while also training wrestling. Given that Pedro is a 10x Jr. National Judo Champ, he didn't 'switch' to Judo after college. His dad is a well known Judo coach, Pedro was doing Judo as soon as he could walk. ( http://jimmypedro.com/blog/jimmy-pedro/ if you want to check for yourself). Hashimoto also did both from a young age.

I'm not saying wrestling isn't helpful for Judo. Hell, any grappling is probably helpful for any other grappling art. But please don't act like these guys were only wrestlers prior to putting on a gi at a late age and dominating national level events. That's simply not the case. They all trained Judo alongside wrestling for years before making national teams and winning international medals.

Didn't Naidan switch to judo when he was 18?

You're right about Pedro & his dad. The guy grew up competing in both sports, started competing in judo first.
Same with other US judoka world/Olympic team members like Jason Morris (Olympic silver & world bronze medalist), Tony Okada (Olympic team member). Same with Kenny Hashimoto.
It isn't that uncommon to see Americans crossing over between the two sports, especially at the jr high & high school age levels.




Anyway, these threads always seem to spiral off. Both sports are similar, a lot of carry over between them. Even more so when comparing catch to judo.
To quote Naidan, "There are a lot of similarities. Wrestling is just wrestling."

 

[Uchi Mata]

Didn't Naidan switch to judo when he was 18?

You're right about Pedro & his dad. The guy grew up competing in both sports, started competing in judo first.
Same with other US judoka world/Olympic team members like Jason Morris (Olympic silver & world bronze medalist), Tony Okada (Olympic team member). Same with Kenny Hashimoto.
It isn't that uncommon to see Americans crossing over between the two sports, especially at the jr high & high school age levels.




Anyway, these threads always seem to spiral off. Both sports are similar, a lot of carry over between them. Even more so when comparing catch to judo.
To quote Naidan, "There are a lot of similarities. Wrestling is just wrestling."

I know Naidan did a lot of Mongolian wrestling with jackets when he was younger, I'm not sure exactly when he started Judo but I remember from an interview that he had been doing Judo about 10 years prior to winning his Olympic medal. I don't know how old he was at the time, and he definitely didn't start Judo as a toddler, but he had been training for a decade or so before winning his gold.

 

[Rod1]

Didn't Naidan switch to judo when he was 18?

You're right about Pedro & his dad. The guy grew up competing in both sports, started competing in judo first.
Same with other US judoka world/Olympic team members like Jason Morris (Olympic silver & world bronze medalist), Tony Okada (Olympic team member). Same with Kenny Hashimoto.
It isn't that uncommon to see Americans crossing over between the two sports, especially at the jr high & high school age levels.




Anyway, these threads always seem to spiral off. Both sports are similar, a lot of carry over between them. Even more so when comparing catch to judo.
To quote Naidan, "There are a lot of similarities. Wrestling is just wrestling."

I already accepted i was wrong about the mongolian freestyler wrestlers.

However you cant compare women wrestling to women judo wrestling, women judo wrestling is probably (probably passed by TKD since it went olympic) with the toughest competition, women wrestling was not seen seriously until it got into the olympics, and even then many countries still dont think women should wrestle.

Women judo on the other hand has a decades old tradition and has been developing on par with mens judo since at least the 80s. Thats why i leave womens wrestling out.

If we put women wrestling in, then Japan is a far better wrestling country than it is a judo country.

Naidan had a decade of judo training before winning gold, maybe he didnt really got into it until he was 18, but still he never competed in freestyle wrestling.

 

[QingTian]

Did anyone answer the original question? The simple fact is that sport Judo is going to be very different from yet to be developed MMA Judo, just like sport BJJ isn't relevant to MMA either.

High level Judo focuses on developing counters to certain grips and situations that won't be applicable elsewhere. When you get a Judoka crossing over to MMA looking for a pay day, you get someone poorly trained for the game. It'd be the same as asking why Marcelo Garcia doesn't win all his MMA fights.

Wrestling is more easily applicable because they focus on basic universal grappling skills. So of course more fighters can use wrestling, because it's a good base to add BJJ or even Judo...

Takedowns, pins, armbars, are all more universal than drop seoinage, gi chokes, and the berimbolo. What do you expect?

In no way however is any art better than the other, because none of them alone is good enough for MMA.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Did anyone answer the original question? The simple fact is that sport Judo is going to be very different from yet to be developed MMA Judo, just like sport BJJ isn't relevant to MMA either.

High level Judo focuses on developing counters to certain grips and situations that won't be applicable elsewhere. When you get a Judoka crossing over to MMA looking for a pay day, you get someone poorly trained for the game. It'd be the same as asking why Marcelo Garcia doesn't win all his MMA fights.

Wrestling is more easily applicable because they focus on basic universal grappling skills. So of course more fighters can use wrestling, because it's a good base to add BJJ or even Judo...

Takedowns, pins, armbars, are all more universal than drop seoinage, gi chokes, and the berimbolo. What do you expect?

In no way however is any art better than the other, because none of them alone is good enough for MMA.

marcelo doesnt win all his mma fights because he had 1 and no more, and he lost by a cut, he was doing just fine, but the damn gloves make the RNC very hard to apply. Im pretty sure if he had dedicated himsefl to mma, he wouldve done just fine.

 

[Rod1]

marcelo doesnt win all his mma fights because he had 1 and no more, and he lost by a cut, he was doing just fine, but the damn gloves make the RNC very hard to apply. Im pretty sure if he had dedicated himsefl to mma, he wouldve done just fine.

Like Galvao?

The fact is simple, MMA BJJ =/= Sport BJJ and the longer the time passes the bigger the difference becomes.

I think over 80-90% of our training nowadays focuses on guard passes and guard sweeps/back takes, a lot of them highly specialized that wouldnt really be used in MMA.

What works in MMA its no longer what wins BJJ competitions, just like any highly specialized sport.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Like Galvao?

The fact is simple, MMA BJJ =/= Sport BJJ and the longer the time passes the bigger the difference becomes.

I think over 80-90% of our training nowadays focuses on guard passes and guard sweeps/back takes, a lot of them highly specialized that wouldnt really be used in MMA.

What works in MMA its no longer what wins BJJ competitions, just like any highly specialized sport.

more like, Jacare or maia....

the rest of the post, I agree with.

 

[Patrick F Carey]

Like Galvao?

wasn't galvao a top 50 fighter in his division? That's not exactly easy to get to

 

[Rod1]

more like, Jacare or maia....

the rest of the post, I agree with.

Jacare hasnt competed in years, im pretty sure he is been training BJJ for MMA, same with Maia.

And its not a bad thing to have specialization, it just happens, if the rules are different the outcomes will always be different.

At least BJJ has no-gi though.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Jacare hasnt competed in years, im pretty sure he is been training BJJ for MMA, same with Maia.

And its not a bad thing to have specialization, it just happens, if the rules are different the outcomes will always be different.

At least BJJ has no-gi though.

do you think galvao was not training bjj for mma? do you think andre some day took off the gi and decided to fight MMA the next day?

im pretty damn sure he spent a lot of time training his ground game for MMA.

 

[Grrrr]

I don't think it's stipulations and argument fitting when the players mentioned have done more years of Judo than wrestling. Even the Mongolian too (that country has strong Judo).

In interviews naidan has stated that he was wrestling since he was young and didn't start Judo until he was older.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE86K03F20120721?irpc=932

 

[Rod1]

In interviews naidan has stated that he was wrestling since he was young and didn't start Judo until he was older.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE86K03F20120721?irpc=932

Nonetheless he never did freestyle, he is refering to Bokh a traditional form of wrestling done with jackets.

I saw an article before who said he had been doing judo for 10 years when he won the olympics, will have to dig it out.

 

[Grrrr]

Nonetheless he never did freestyle, he is refering to Bokh a traditional form of wrestling done with jackets.

I saw an article before who said he had been doing judo for 10 years when he won the olympics, will have to dig it out.

I agree. Was just digging into it a bit and was surprised to find out he didn't start Judo until 18.

 

[SFCFighter]

Tuvshinbayar only took up judo at the age of 18, after seeing the Asian Championships on television.

But like many of Mongolia's nomadic herders raised on the vast steppe, he grew up wrestling, as a young child with his family's livestock, and later in matches at traditional festivals.

He even refers to his chosen sport as

 

[RJ Green]

i know there's this contingency of 'purists' that insist Judo should be this upright-played insta-pretty-ippon sport, but it's not. Yet those same folks insist it SHOULD be, and the rules have been tailored accordingly. These are also the same people who think Judo doesn't have the interest Wrestling does because they're 'too similar', not because, you know, there's an epidemic of douchey elitism among the anglo-saxon Judo community.

people don't watch judo because they have no idea what the fuck is going on. well, and because it's boring. if the focus is on scoring ippon as fast as possible, with the goal of increasing viewership, then the IJF has things ass-backwards. they've turned Judo into a highlight reel. a montage. nobody wants to watch 3 hours of angry-looking people in baggy pajamas screaming like banshees and diving at the ground while some insurance salesman getting a rectal exam looking octogenarian flails around babbling in japanese and stopping the contest every ten seconds...

as for the style vs style shit, it's all the same thing - grappling - with different points of focus.

there's no reason not to cross train as much as possible. the people who constrain themselves to one style and claim superiority over other styles - especially those that DON'T cross train, have their head too far up their ass to see the light or hear the truth.

 

[peregrine]

WTF is WRONG with USA JUDO?
USA sucks in JUDO.
what are some of the primary reasons?

 

[valjits]

Its not very popular in usa that's why we are not very good other countries judo is a popular sport so there is thousands of kids training in it from their youth I didn't even know what judo was till I started bjj.

 

[riddleofsteel]

I already accepted i was wrong about the mongolian freestyler wrestlers.

However you cant compare women wrestling to women judo wrestling, women judo wrestling is probably (probably passed by TKD since it went olympic) with the toughest competition, women wrestling was not seen seriously until it got into the olympics, and even then many countries still dont think women should wrestle.

Women judo on the other hand has a decades old tradition and has been developing on par with mens judo since at least the 80s. Thats why i leave womens wrestling out.

If we put women wrestling in, then Japan is a far better wrestling country than it is a judo country.

Naidan had a decade of judo training before winning gold, maybe he didnt really got into it until he was 18, but still he never competed in freestyle wrestling.

Naidan has stated he started training judo when he was 18, he won Olympic gold in 2008, when he was 24 years old.
Maybe he never competed in freestyle wrestling but it would be pretty rare for a Mongolian guy competing in Mongolian style of wrestling into his late teens to never practiced or competed in freestyle, especially one with a lot of athletic ability.

Why are you disparaging women's freestyle wrestling? What do you mean it wasn't taken seriously until it was in the Olympics? Based on what? If countries weren't taking it seriously then it would not have been allowed in the Olympics. TKD only has 1 more Olympic cycle, so was TKD not taken seriously until 2000?
How much women's wrestling have you watched prior to 2004?

Well, yeah some countries are against women wrestling, same with how they are against them competing in judo or boxing or for some countries any sport.

 

[riddleofsteel]

WTF is WRONG with USA JUDO?
USA sucks in JUDO.
what are some of the primary reasons?

A big part of it is judo is virtually non existent in scholastic sports programs. The only state that I know of that has judo as a sponsored sport is Hawaii.
Almost every other Olympic sport can be found in sports programs, at least PE, from grade school through high school. There are some other exceptions but those sports - like boxing, shooting, equestrian, TKD - have other established ways to get athletes.

Even parents that want to get their kids involved in a martial art, they think of karate, kung fu, TKD not judo. Don't know why.
For me the summer between 6th & 7th grade my parents signed me up for TKD. Even though I was already involved in wrestling, judo wasn't even thought about. I would have much rather done judo, TKD sucked, a lot of whiny kids and supposedly the place I went was supposed to be "tough", a gym, dojo whatever that entered a lot of competitions and did really well.