Judo techniques: Why don't they beat wrestlers?

[Uchi Mata]

Lets put this to bed. Your average judoka is nowhere near the efficacy or athleticism of your average wrestler. At least in the US. There are a few amazing Judo players, but nowhere near the consistency USA Wrestling has.

This is because wrestling is scholastic, and judo is a hobby. Scholastic sports start sooner and cost almost nothing. Its all numbers. Even if we assume there is the same ratio of mediocre-to-elite athletes, wrestling by virtue of participation pumps out far more of them.

Since they start younger, they learn the rigors of training at a young age. Judo still attracts a fair amount of less-than-stellar athletes thanks to the kata kool-aid and the prevalence of pot bellies.

Two wings of the same bird. Grappling's grappling. If you're good at one you'll generally have the skills to take up and succeed in another.

But generally speaking, your average wrestler is better at what they do than your average Judo player. I've been playing Judo for 8 years now, and I have no problem admitting as much.

Ditto. I was never athletic enough to be good at wrestling, but I was probably slightly above average athleticism among competing judoka back when I fought a lot of Judo tournaments. The level of athleticism, dedication, and time on the mats is almost always much lower for US judoka than US wrestlers. I imagine the situation would be reversed in a country like Japan where Judo is scholastic and many of the best athletes commit to professional Judo careers from a young age.

 

[Rod1]

You said there were no scholastic womens wrestling in the USA. Dont backtrack and start making excuses of why that statement is 100% false. There are 1600 womens teams and 20 college teams.

There are more womens scholastic teams in the USA than Mens judo teams in many countries.

Do I think womens wrestling is on par with mens? No. But stop making stupid infactual statements to fit your argument when they are so blatently false.

I dont need to backtrack because the original argument that my previous post responds to still stands, women judo is a far more developed sport than women wrestling.

There are no strong judo countries that dont field strong female judo teams, thats a fact, there is the equivalent of Div 1 women judo in every country that has scholastic judo.

Women judo is something that has been seen ok for decades, wrestling was seen until recently a male sport, a women wrestler was as weird a sight as today you see meens rythmic gymnastics. The reason why there is women wrestling is because judo pioneered that effort.

Thats why Ronda Rousey seems so head and shoulders above other women in MMA.

 

[Rod1]

Lets put this to bed. Your average judoka is nowhere near the efficacy or athleticism of your average wrestler. At least in the US. There are a few amazing Judo players, but nowhere near the consistency USA Wrestling has.

This is because wrestling is scholastic, and judo is a hobby. Scholastic sports start sooner and cost almost nothing. Its all numbers. Even if we assume there is the same ratio of mediocre-to-elite athletes, wrestling by virtue of participation pumps out far more of them.

Since they start younger, they learn the rigors of training at a young age. Judo still attracts a fair amount of less-than-stellar athletes thanks to the kata kool-aid and the prevalence of pot bellies.

Two wings of the same bird. Grappling's grappling. If you're good at one you'll generally have the skills to take up and succeed in another.

But generally speaking, your average wrestler is better at what they do than your average Judo player. I've been playing Judo for 8 years now, and I have no problem admitting as much.

This is only true in the USA.

I knew a cuban judoka with a 520lbs squat at 160 lbs BW.

 

[kintana]

Lets put this to bed. Your average judoka is nowhere near the efficacy or athleticism of your average wrestler. At least in the US. There are a few amazing Judo players, but nowhere near the consistency USA Wrestling has.

This is because wrestling is scholastic, and judo is a hobby. Scholastic sports start sooner and cost almost nothing. Its all numbers. Even if we assume there is the same ratio of mediocre-to-elite athletes, wrestling by virtue of participation pumps out far more of them.

yes this is correct. Club sports in the US especially marital arts are not as intense as a scholastic team especially a high school team. For example I played club baseball for a non travel team. Since I paid my fees I had guarantee PT (playing time). In contrast to my first middle school season where I sat the bench. I wasn't as good as the other guys though I did get PT it was mainly as a backup in late innings of already won or lost games.

Then went into high school it was more intense. To give a example, in high school following FHSAA rules we had S&C workouts, regular practice (fall and spring season) and individual skills work.

I seriously doubt a club martial arts program follows this intense a schedule.

I do believe though the athletic ability of average wrestler surpass a average judokas because of a different mentality. In judo technique is primary. The judo team I train with now is very technique driven and only national teams guys do intense conditioning. The wrestling team I train with here, conditioning is as valued as technique.

I worry about wrestling practice when I go because of the intense level of training and warm ups. I usually am very comfortable with the physical training at judo practice.

Not to say elite judokas are not as in good shape as elite wrestlers. But average wrestlers stress conditioning more then average judokas.

 

[SFCFighter]

I see a lot of leg attacks and wrestling moves here.. all done with a bent over stance primarily.

I don't see any classical Kodokan style moves like footsweeps or hip tosses.

 

[Kaffe]

I do believe though the athletic ability of average wrestler surpass a average judokas because of a different mentality. In judo technique is primary. The judo team I train with now is very technique driven and only national teams guys do intense conditioning. The wrestling team I train with here, conditioning is as valued as technique.

I worry about wrestling practice when I go because of the intense level of training and warm ups. I usually am very comfortable with the physical training at judo practice.

Not to say elite judokas are not as in good shape as elite wrestlers. But average wrestlers stress conditioning more then average judokas.

I have the same impression in Norway. When I did Greco I would be completely spent after training, but I can do 3 judo sessions in a row. Guessing one reason it has gotten this way is that wrestling is only considered as a niche sport for dedicated people, while judo also attracts the martial arts geeks. This necessarily affects training intensity.

 

[RJ Green]

Also, think of all the athletes that never take up Judo. I knew some crazy athletic people in college who just weren't interested in the politics and douchebaggery.

The whole "We aren't athletic but we bow real good and turn everything into a color-coded pissing contest" really turns people away. and like I said, some clubs are straight-up anti-athlete. I mean, if I ran a business contingent on people thinking I could whoop their ass, I'd be wary of having my ass whooped too, but I've known clubs to promote athletes slower because 'they didn't have to try as hard.'

My old sensei always said he wasn't concerned with making a good athlete great, but taking those schlubby people and giving them the means to at least get healthy and maybe fight back. Always loved him for it too. He didn't give a shit about talent. He wanted dedication. Fortitude. For people who lack those things, or didn't get into scholastic sports because of all THAT horseshit, TMAs are great.

As an athlete in the US, there really isn't a good reason to take up Judo unless you love it. There is absolutely no money in it. Kayla Harrison got $100k for her gold medal and I think AAA baseball players get more than that. BJJ and MMA are far more lucrative. A friend of mine just doubled bronzed at the presidents cup. I think he got $500 altogether, so he might have broken even on the trip.

USA Judo need to do a better job recruiting athletes out of other sports, purging itself of the holier-tahn-thou attitude that turns casual athletes away, and dear god COMPENSATE PEOPLE FOR THEIR EFFORTS. I know folks who simply can't afford to compete, amazing college athletes that can't swing a $1500 weekend vacation to the coasts.

But the organization has consistently shown an unwillingness to dislodge its head from its ass, or even address the criticisms levied towards them. In fact, the prevailing message from USA Judo is 'fuck you, we know better'.

If the kodokan could start an international coalition as a direct competitor to IJF, id defect in an instant.

Sorry for the novels. It pisses me off when something could be more than it is if people would only come down from their crosses.

 

[Rod1]

I see a lot of leg attacks and wrestling moves here.. all done with a bent over stance primarily.

I don't see any classical Kodokan style moves like footsweeps or hip tosses.

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Judo is not judo either?

 

[RJ Green]

I see a lot of leg attacks and wrestling moves here.. all done with a bent over stance primarily.

I don't see any classical Kodokan style moves like footsweeps or hip tosses.

This shit ^ is what I'm talking about. This mentality is why nobody wants to do Judo, a bunch of assholes squabbling about what it is or isn't based solely on what they prefer.

 

[Rod1]

I see a lot of leg attacks and wrestling moves here.. all done with a bent over stance primarily.

I don't see any classical Kodokan style moves like footsweeps or hip tosses.

Seriously, what its your idea of judo?

There is virtually zero tie ups in that video, its all cloth grips, i see a ouchi gari an uchi mata too, i also saw a wrestler get pulled down because his posture was low and i see a lot of single legs done against people who are upright, simply because you have have the levels of a wrestler because you can get pulled down and lose.

But of course according to you, Judo is old men training at YMCA LARPing japanese, anything else is obviously wrestling.

 

[QingTian]

I have the same impression in Norway. When I did Greco I would be completely spent after training, but I can do 3 judo sessions in a row. Guessing one reason it has gotten this way is that wrestling is only considered as a niche sport for dedicated people, while judo also attracts the martial arts geeks. This necessarily affects training intensity.

In another thread they talked about the training intensity at Atos and other top BJJ gyms. They were nowhere near the intensity of top wrestling schools either. Yet the conclusion was, these guys knew what they were doing. Each sport has their own optimal technique/conditioning time spent proportion. If you want to criticize Judo for being easier than wrestling, why not criticize BJJ for being easier than Judo?

The fact is that the rules affect intensity. The easier it is to have a sudden loss, then more active and intense you have to be to avoid getting caught. A whole chain of events needs to happen before you are submitted. A few mistakes need to be made for you to get thrown. A pin? Someone just has to outwork you and you might roll over. Not saying any sport is less technical but the margin of safety is less.

 

[Kaffe]

I'm not criticizing judo.

 

[Rod1]

I have the same impression in Norway. When I did Greco I would be completely spent after training, but I can do 3 judo sessions in a row. Guessing one reason it has gotten this way is that wrestling is only considered as a niche sport for dedicated people, while judo also attracts the martial arts geeks. This necessarily affects training intensity.

Dont know about Norway but Sweden has a good greco team, neither country has a decent judo team.

If you want decent intensity judo, you need to go scholastic, its very different mentality when you are training for free and even receiving merits based on your performance and when you pay to train.

 

[Kaffe]

Dont know about Norway but Sweden has a good greco team, neither country has a decent judo team.

If you want decent intensity judo, you need to go scholastic, its very different mentality when you are training for free and even receiving merits based on your performance and when you pay to train.

Norway isn't anywhere near Sweden's wrestling level, but sometimes a very good wrestler appears in people like Jon R

 

[SFCFighter]

I'm pretty sure a lot of those "Judo" pick ups are now banned by the IJF in competition.

Also, I have never seen someone shoot a single leg from the open in a Judo competition lol

 

[Rod1]

I'm pretty sure a lot of those "Judo" pick ups are now banned by the IJF in competition.

Also, I have never seen someone shoot a single leg from the open in a Judo competition lol

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They do, but its pretty difficult to score that way, so its not seen past a certain level.

Also i dont see how the ban on leg attacks with the hand has anything to do with the fact that mongolian wrestling is far closer to judo than freestyle. The grips change everything, period.

 

[SFCFighter]

Almost every attack in that video of Mongolian WRESTLING I posted involved grabbing the leg as part of the initial attack.

From my understanding, this is now illegal in sport Judo.

Forgive my ignorance if I am wrong, but can you really shoot a single leg in Judo these days? I am 99% sure that is illegal.

I'm pretty sure Morote Gari or a blast double is now illegal too from the open.

Rhadi Ferguson was a college wrestler, by the way.

 

[Rod1]

Almost every attack in that video of Mongolian WRESTLING I posted involved grabbing the leg as part of the initial attack.

Its called Bokh, mongolian wrestling is a translation that has no connection to freestyle wrestling.

From my understanding, this is now illegal in sport Judo.

Those legs attack opportunities are created because of the upright posture forced by the existence of the grips and the fact that they cant go to their knees.

Besides the fact that they grab their legs, the setup is completely different and i expect any wrestler who is freshly introduced to Bokh to not be able to apply 80% of his game to it, a Judoka will be able to apply more than 80% of his standup game.

Also plenty of judo or jacket wrestling pickups are allowed thanks to the upper body control allowed with a good grip and the ability to grab the belt.

Forgive my ignorance if I am wrong, but can you really shoot a single leg in Judo these days? I am 99% sure that is illegal.

It is illegal right now, but even so it was a useless move, in Judo if you manage to turn around and fall face down it doesnt scores squat.

When there are plenty of better opportunities as you have seen in the pickups videos.

Mongolian wrestling has pickups because any down is a win, they are not looking into forcing them into a high amplitude throw.

I'm pretty sure Morote Gari or a blast double is now illegal too from the open.

Rhadi Ferguson was a college wrestler, by the way.

And a pretty unsuccesful judoka, i was merely pointing out the futility of attempting a single leg in a sport where it wont score squat.

Also the inability to attack the legs is far easier to adapt to than a new whole gripping and tie up game.

Low singles, low doubles, low ANYTHING in wrestling is illegal in Bokh because you touch the ground with the knee, or are at risk of touching it if the opponent pulls you or anything.

Also where do you get the bend over stance? their legs are perfectly straight, they are not crouched at the legs unlike in wrestling.

 

[riddleofsteel]

If its not speculation where is the evidence? Naidan in singlet, Naidan saying he competed or trained freestyle etc.



Iran is not a judo country and Georgia is a new judo country and its ctching up quickly.

Im talking France, Spain, Japan, Germany, Korea, Cuba, Brazil, the traditional top 10 judo countries also field strong women teams, some countries even have stronger women teams than male teams, like Japan and Cuba.



Who lose to east asians.



Exactly my point, if women wrestling was developed as men wrestling, then you wouldnt see such disparity.



I already showed the data showing that women wrestling is only 3% of mens wrestling and there are no div 1 women wrestling programs.




Reading comprehension fail.

I was asking countries that have men judo that its not on par with women judo.

For example the USA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Collegiate_Athletic_Association#All_sports

The prime university association has mens wrestling but no womens wrestling. Also the IOC already tried to kill women wrestling by shaving 3 weight classes from it. Women wrestling is just not that popular of a sport.



To show disparity between mens wrestling and women wrestling, countries that train wrestling dont

Not at all, there is a marked sexism in wrestling as a sport, there was not even fathomable for women to participate in wrestling, because traditionally women have not wrestled. There are no local forms of wrestling around the world where women wrestle, some for cultural reasons, some for religious reasons.

In fact mongolians wrestlers have their chest uncovered because of a legend that a woman once entered and won a tournament so from there wrestlers must show their chest as proof they are men.

Judo was the first form of wrestling worldwide to accept women, no matter the region, wrestling was a mens sport and is still sometimes.

You cant simply say with a straigth face that women wrestlers are the same level of athletes are mens wrestlers.

Using mongolia as an example, before judo came there was no women wrestling, Bokh is a mens sport. The rise of female mongolian wrestlers came with the rise of judo and the acceptance of women grappling.

Iran is not a judo country and Georgia is a new judo country and its ctching up quickly.

Im talking France, Spain, Japan, Germany, Korea, Cuba, Brazil, the traditional top 10 judo countries also field strong women teams, some countries even have stronger women teams than male teams, like Japan and Cuba.

Iran does have men's judo, so does Georgia. I mentioned those to answer one of your multiple questions. Your initial question wasn't just about the traditional top judo countries.

Who lose to east asians.

Your comment about Central Asian countries having women's freestyle wrestling. First, this was your comment I was responding to:
"you still dont see many advances of the traditional wrestling countries, which is not surprising since central asia is extremely patriarchal."
They have women's wrestling, they do place at international competitions. Azerjabaijan's team won the world title in 2009.
They both lose to and beat east Asian wrestlers (Japan isn't the only East Asian team...)

Exactly my point, if women wrestling was developed as men wrestling, then you wouldnt see such disparity.

The above was in response to my comment "Even the western European countries that have performed poorly in wrestling since the breakup of the USSR field women's freestyle teams. Same with southeast Asian countries."
So, now that some countries have women performing better than men that means women's wrestling is underdeveloped. Yet previously you stated women's wrestling is underdeveloped because they don't perform as well as their country's male counterparts. So, which one is it?

I already showed the data showing that women wrestling is only 3% of mens wrestling and there are no div 1 women wrestling programs.

You stated there was no scholastic wrestling for women in the USA. You were and you still are wrong.

Reading comprehension fail.
I was asking countries that have men judo that its not on par with women judo.
For example the USA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...ion#All_sports
The prime university association has mens wrestling but no womens wrestling. Also the IOC already tried to kill women wrestling by shaving 3 weight classes from it. Women wrestling is just not that popular of a sport.

Below is what you posted.

Name me one country that has scholastic male judo and no scholastic female judo and for everyone ill bring a country that has scholastic male wrestling but no scholastic female wrestling.

You simply asked for countries that have scholastic judo for men but not for women.
Not only are you exampling reading comprehension failure you can't even comprehend what you have posted.

The US has more than one collegiate sports association. Not every sport is governed by the NCAA: for example rugby has their own governing body same with men's crew.
Women's wrestling also has development programs through USA wrestling.
There are more collegiate programs for women's wrestling than there are for men's gymnastics. So, I guess that means USA men perform poorly in gymnastics, after all, the number of collegiate, scholastic programs seems to be the biggest factor to you in developing USA wrestling. Some irony there considering some Americans view schools competing in folkstyle hampering development of freestyle/greco roman for men. (yes, I know college women's teams compete under fs)


I listed countries, you did not answer.

 

[riddleofsteel]

well, I dont think you get the concept right, GSP does not train wrestling, he trains mma wrestling, just as most of the UFC roster trains mma bjj...

a wrestler is considered a person who comes from a wrestling background, GSP does not, actually if you look at his early fights, he was announced as a bjj fighters, he no shit learned how to wrestle, and now, he mostly wrestles in the cage, but he is not the common definition of a wrestler...

GSP has trained in wrestling, he has even competed in some regional tournaments in Canada. So, now according to you he is a wrestler. Wait, what?