Judo techniques: Why don't they beat wrestlers?

[Rod1]

I agree with you, but it isnt ludicrous. One wrestler even put on a gi and won the Olympics, one that I know of won the world championships.

Tuvshinbayar Naidan won the Olympics for Mongolia when I was training for the Beijing Games.

No, Naidan is not a freestyle wrestler where did you got that idea? there is no freestyle wrestling in Mongolia.

He was a mongolian Bokh wrestler, a form of wrestling done with jackets, like Judo. Thats why mongolians place in Judo but are never seen in the wrestling podiums.

And even so, he started training judo at age 13, and won his gold medal at 24, thats not he put on a gi and won judo gold.

USA's best Judoka ever was Jimmy Pedro who was a highschool folkstyle state champ and wrestled for Brown in college. After college he switched to judo and won the world championships and took bronze in the Olympics as well as a bunch of other accolades that I cant really remember.

LOL no, Jimmy Pedro jr was training judo since he was a kid, Jimmy Pedro Sr is one of the best US coaches of judo.

If anything Pedro was winning wrestling with his judo and not vecesara.

The judokas used to come cross train with us in Colorado Springs. They trained hard and were fairly tough considering they werent wrestling on a daily basis. I would imagine in a gi they would be much tougher to beat. I would imagine a world level judoka would be impossible to beat in the gi without leg attacks if our greco guys just walked into the world championships and put on a gi. However, with training, it has been possible for wrestlers who have tried.

Under judo rules, not even leg attacks would be enough to beat a high level judoka. It requires extensive judo training.

So stop with that dellusion that freestyle wrestlers have been putting gis and winning at Judo thats a big fallacy.

 

[Rod1]

really? You think 2 college wrestlers had less time on the wrestling mats by the time they were 22 than judo? College wrestling is 2x a day for 4-5 years and once a day for 7 years of scholastic. That's not even counting peewee.

Jimmy Pedro Jr was training Judo since he was 5 years old, he is a male Ronda Rousey. I dont know who Hashimoto is but he hasnt won any international event, so that point is moot.

And Naidan is not a freestyle wrestler, you just invented him a biography to suit your needs. He did mongolian traditional wrestling when he was a kid and trained 10 years of judo before getting a gold medal at the olympics.

And Jimmy never stopped training judo in his life, if he was winning at college wrestling then your opposite point has been proved, that a high lvl judoka (Jimmy Pedro placed bronze in 1991 world championship while he was at college) can take of the gi and win at college level folkstyle wrestling.

 

[Rod1]

really? You think 2 college wrestlers had less time on the wrestling mats by the time they were 22 than judo? College wrestling is 2x a day for 4-5 years and once a day for 7 years of scholastic. That's not even counting peewee.

You really think that Jimmy Pedro Jr was training wrestling and he simply put the gi and flew to Barcelona to get bronze at the worlds.

He was certainly not training that amount of wrestling while also flying around the world to get enough points to get to the world championship in Judo.

Now you are going to say that Ronda Rousey is a wrestler.

 

[QingTian]

really? You think 2 college wrestlers had less time on the wrestling mats by the time they were 22 than judo? College wrestling is 2x a day for 4-5 years and once a day for 7 years of scholastic. That's not even counting peewee.

High level Judo trains just as much. I'd concede if they had come straight out of college with no Judo and started winning at high levels straight away, but they didn't. Both were already black belts by the time of college. Of course, I don't deny that wrestling helped them develop as grapplers. Yet it's not accurate to call them wrestlers winning in Judo, when they started Judo first, trained Judo at high levels, and use Judo techniques among their main techniques.

 

[Rod1]

High level Judo trains just as much. I'd concede if they had come straight out of college with no Judo and started winning at high levels straight away, but they didn't. Both were already black belts by the time of college. Of course, I don't deny that wrestling helped them develop as grapplers. Yet it's not accurate to call them wrestlers winning in Judo, when they started Judo first, trained Judo at high levels, and use Judo techniques among their main techniques.

No, Jimmy Pedro Jr was literally training Judo while still in college, he never stopped training judo until he retired, he won his first world medal at age 20, he wasnt doing that while doing exclusively wrestling.

 

[SFCFighter]

No, Naidan is not a freestyle wrestler where did you got that idea? there is no freestyle wrestling in Mongolia.

He was a mongolian Bokh wrestler, a form of wrestling done with jackets, like Judo. Thats why mongolians place in Judo but are never seen in the wrestling podiums.

So stop with that dellusion that freestyle wrestlers have been putting gis and winning at Judo thats a big fallacy.

tell all the Mongolian medalists in the Olympics and Worlds for freestyle wrestling that there is no freestyle wrestling in Mongolia and that they never place in wrestling podiums.. you are utterly ridiculous in your ignorance

Mongolia is a better wrestling country than it is a judo country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia_at_the_Olympics



here they are practicing freestyle wrestling before Nadaam, the Bokhe competition

 

[Uchi Mata]

If you want to put a bunch of stulipulations on it that's fine. You can interpret it to fit your argument all you want. You asked for two wrestlers who did well in judo at a high level. I gave you two college wrestlers and a Mongolian who was on the freestyle national team who went on to win world and Olympic titles after quitting wrestling. If that's not good enough then don't even ask. No country will even allow a wrestler to walk off the mat, arbitrarily award himself a black belt and jump on the world team on a whim.

I'm not trying to talk my way out of top Judo guys in the US having wrestled. The post I was originally responding to specifically said 'guys who transitioned late in life from wrestling to Judo' had reached international levels. I called bullshit on the idea that a good wrestler who never did Judo could win international Judo comps with very little Judo training based on his wrestling. Pedro, Hashimoto, etc did both for a long time. I have no doubt wrestling helped them a great deal, but I think the reason they won Judo competitions is because they've spent a shit ton of time on the Judo mat.

 

[flanellograf]

really? You think 2 college wrestlers had less time on the wrestling mats by the time they were 22 than judo? College wrestling is 2x a day for 4-5 years and once a day for 7 years of scholastic. That's not even counting peewee.

How is that relevant to the argument? When someone makes a statement to the effect of "wrestlers that came in and beat judokas", it's implied that the wrestlers had no to very little judo experience. Which apparently was not the case.
If someone has cross-trained enough to be considered a wrestler AND a judoka, then referring to that person as (merely) a wrestler is pretty disingenuous.

 

[Rod1]

tell all the Mongolian medalists in the Olympics and Worlds for freestyle wrestling that there is no freestyle wrestling in Mongolia and that they never place in wrestling podiums.. you are utterly ridiculous in your ignorance

Mongolia is a better wrestling country than it is a judo country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia_at_the_Olympics



here they are practicing freestyle wrestling before Nadaam, the Bokhe competition

No, its not.

Male mongolians dont place in wrestling, they havent won a single medal in over 30 years, they regularly do get Judo medals.

Lets take the last olympics, Mongolia won a silver and a bronze medal in these olympics in the male division.

Mongolia won nothing on the male wrestling division even despite the fact that wrestling has TWICE the amount of medals available to win.

Some mongolian women have placed, but women wrestling is dominated by Judokas, thats why Japanese women win half the gold medals everytime.

Using medals won almost 50 years ago is as stupid as saying that the USSR was inferior to the USA in wrestling because all those medals won before 1952

 

[SFCFighter]

Name two. If Judo were that easy, why aren't there a flock of wrestlers who can't quite make their national teams medaling in Olympic Judo? Wrestling may be a better base for MMA (I tend to agree that it is), but the idea that wrestlers can put on a gi and beat experience Judoka at Judo is ludicrous. I've had high school champs and D1 team members put on gis and do Judo with me, and while they have great balance and are hard to throw they have no gi grip fighting skills, and are really vulnerable to throws like uchi mata, tomoe nage, and various foot sweeps due to their stance.

If Judo were so easy to get good at quickly, you'd see a lot of wrestlers transitioning because who doesn't want an Olympic medal? But you don't, because it's no easier to transition to Judo from wrestling than it is to transition from wrestling to BJJ. Related but very different skill sets.

I didn't claim there are hordes of failed wrestlers who have become world level medalists in Judo. I know several who have made the transition and become good enough to do well at national competitions very quickly. These are guys from Russia/Ukraine/Georgia though, and they were previously freestyle or greco-roman wrestlers, not folkstyle. I have seen their medals and unless you are acquainted with the junior and senior national scene of these countries it would be useless to mention their names. None of them made it to the worlds or olympics.

I have attended 'Judo' practices run by Georgians who are wearing wrestling shoes and shorts with a gi top (sambo style I guess) and who were former freestyle wrestlers.

Judo in the US is pretty weak so its not uncommon at all for older wrestlers to make the switch and do well, like Ron Tripp. There was an Iowa wrestler named Eric Duus who made a serious run in his 40s at going to the olympics in judo.

http://newsok.com/tripps-success-quiets-skeptics-ex-wrestler-now-judo-champ/article/2230395

 

[flanellograf]

To return to the topic: Isn't it so that most "competition styles" in Judo don't lend themselves all that well to mma, as they tend to rely on grip fighting and gaming the rules (don't remember exactly how this was motivated, believe I read something to that effect on either Rousey's moms blog, or somewhere). Rousey seems to be a somewhat unique example, being a newaza and armbar specialist. I mean, this has to some extent been true for wrestlers also, there are quite a few whose wrestling hasn't translated all that well to mma. I'm sure there are Judokas that have styles that could transfer well.
As someone already said, it's perhaps hard to say since the sample size is pretty small.

 

[Rod1]

I didn't claim there are hordes of failed wrestlers who have become world level medalists in Judo. I know several who have made the transition and become good enough to do well at national competitions very quickly. These are guys from Russia/Ukraine/Georgia though, and they were previously freestyle or greco-roman wrestlers, not folkstyle. I have seen their medals and unless you are acquainted with the junior and senior national scene of these countries it would be useless to mention their names. None of them made it to the worlds or olympics.

I have attended 'Judo' practices run by Georgians who are wearing wrestling shoes and shorts with a gi top (sambo style I guess) and who were former freestyle wrestlers.

Judo in the US is pretty weak so its not uncommon at all for older wrestlers to make the switch and do well, like Ron Tripp. There was an Iowa wrestler named Eric Duus who made a serious run in his 40s at going to the olympics in judo.

http://newsok.com/tripps-success-quiets-skeptics-ex-wrestler-now-judo-champ/article/2230395

Of course, but in judo strong and wrestling weak countries the opposite is true.

 

[SFCFighter]

No, its not.

Male mongolians dont place in wrestling, they havent won a single medal in over 30 years, they regularly do get Judo medals.

Lets take the last olympics, Mongolia won a silver and a bronze medal in these olympics in the male division.

Mongolia won nothing on the male wrestling division even despite the fact that wrestling has TWICE the amount of medals available to win.

Some mongolian women have placed, but women wrestling is dominated by Judokas, thats why Japanese women win half the gold medals everytime.

Using medals won almost 50 years ago is as stupid as saying that the USSR was inferior to the USA in wrestling because all those medals won before 1952

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling_in_Mongolia

they have had male medalists at the worlds in 2013 and throughout recent history

also if you knew anything about Japanese freestyle wrestling, you would know it looks NOTHING like judo

Japan is famous for low level shots and swing singles, that type of thing, they do not wrestle upper body much at all. Yonemitsu, the 2012 gold medalist, is famous for his sweep single and low level attacks. No Japanese male won a gold medal in the 2012 Olympics for Judo, 1 did for wrestling.

South Korea wrestles upper body much more and they are a dominant Greco-Roman country, but in freestyle, they are not really known as throwers.

It may surprise you that Japan and South Korea, two Judo powerhouses have a distinct, completely separate, and thriving wrestling culture and they are world powers in freestyle and greco, just like Mongolia is an excellent wrestling country. Mongolia even exports a handful of wrestlers to the folkstyle college system in the USA every year.

 

[flanellograf]

I didn't claim there are hordes of failed wrestlers who have become world level medalists in Judo. I know several who have made the transition and become good enough to do well at national competitions very quickly. These are guys from Russia/Ukraine/Georgia though, and they were previously freestyle or greco-roman wrestlers, not folkstyle. I have seen their medals and unless you are acquainted with the junior and senior national scene of these countries it would be useless to mention their names. None of them made it to the worlds or olympics.

I have attended 'Judo' practices run by Georgians who are wearing wrestling shoes and shorts with a gi top (sambo style I guess) and who were former freestyle wrestlers.

Judo in the US is pretty weak so its not uncommon at all for older wrestlers to make the switch and do well, like Ron Tripp. There was an Iowa wrestler named Eric Duus who made a serious run in his 40s at going to the olympics in judo.

http://newsok.com/tripps-success-quiets-skeptics-ex-wrestler-now-judo-champ/article/2230395

As a side note: Are there any high-level Judokas that switched to wrestling late in their career and did well?

 

[Rod1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling_in_Mongolia

they have had male medalists at the worlds in 2013 and throughout recent history

Male bronze as opposed to Judo silve and bronze in 2013? and take into account that Judo has half the medals of wrestling.

Mongolia has not won a male medal olympic in almost 40 years, their best year was Moscow but that was a boycotted Olympics.

Also Naidan is called a freestyle wrestler by internet trolls, yet not a single photo of him on a singlet has been produced.

There is no evidence whatsoever of him ever competing or even training freestyle wrestling besides a short bio saying that he wrestled until 13 years old (later was shown it was Bokh.

 

[Rod1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling_in_Mongolia

they have had male medalists at the worlds in 2013 and throughout recent history

also if you knew anything about Japanese freestyle wrestling, you would know it looks NOTHING like judo

Japan is famous for low level shots and swing singles, that type of thing, they do not wrestle upper body much at all. Yonemitsu, the 2012 gold medalist, is famous for his sweep single and low level attacks. No Japanese male won a gold medal in the 2012 Olympics for Judo, 1 did for wrestling.
Smilies
South Korea wrestles upper body much more and they are a dominant Greco-Roman country, but in freestyle, they are not really known as throwers.

It may surprise you that Japan and South Korea, two Judo powerhouses have a distinct, completely separate, and thriving wrestling culture and they are world powers in freestyle and greco, just like Mongolia is an excellent wrestling country. Mongolia even exports a handful of wrestlers to the folkstyle college system in the USA every year.

The difference is that Japan is always there in Judo, they are no longer a dominant male force, but they are there all the time.

Mongolia male wrestling is entirely non-existant when it comes to medals.

Yonemitsu may have got gold, and thats a great example, but Japan got 2 silvers and 2 bronze in male Judo, also judo has HALF the medals available, so its twice as hard to get one.

But lets go back to the argument.

-Medals show that currently Mongolia is a stronger Judo country that wrestling country, at least in the mens division.

-Naidan is not a freestyle wrestler, there is no record on him even competing, there is no medals and there isnt even a picture of him in a singlet

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

Some mongolian women have placed, but women wrestling is dominated by Judokas, thats why Japanese women win half the gold medals everytime.

Yoshida or Icho have Judo backgrounds? Any evidence of that? They don't wrestle like it at all.

 

[ChainFlow]

I didn't claim there are hordes of failed wrestlers who have become world level medalists in Judo. I know several who have made the transition and become good enough to do well at national competitions very quickly. These are guys from Russia/Ukraine/Georgia though, and they were previously freestyle or greco-roman wrestlers, not folkstyle. I have seen their medals and unless you are acquainted with the junior and senior national scene of these countries it would be useless to mention their names. None of them made it to the worlds or olympics.

I have attended 'Judo' practices run by Georgians who are wearing wrestling shoes and shorts with a gi top (sambo style I guess) and who were former freestyle wrestlers.

Judo in the US is pretty weak so its not uncommon at all for older wrestlers to make the switch and do well, like Ron Tripp. There was an Iowa wrestler named Eric Duus who made a serious run in his 40s at going to the olympics in judo.

http://newsok.com/tripps-success-quiets-skeptics-ex-wrestler-now-judo-champ/article/2230395

If wrestling's popularity in the US was reversed with judo, you could take random decent judo competitors, throw a singlet on them, and they'd win national titles too. That means jack squat.

Judo is one of the most widely practiced sports in the world. Imagine if everyone in the US who played baseball did Judo instead. The talent level would be a lot higher.

The level of Judo in the US is, on average, far below Europe/Caucus/Asia. Even our top level athletes are lower level because the talent pool is so much smaller than other nations'. US wrestlers are among the best in the world. And yet they try to generalize the experience of wrestling vs Judo in the US to wrestling and Judo as systems. It's nonsense.

 

[Dirty Holt]

Male mongolians dont place in wrestling, they havent won a single medal in over 30 years, they regularly do get Judo medals.

Lets take the last olympics, Mongolia won a silver and a bronze medal in these olympics in the male division.

Again, this is total horseshit. Just like Frank Mir being a freestyle wrestler and only 3 UFC champs being folkstyle wrestlers, its getting annoying recorrecting your completely infactual posts. You claimed Mongolia has not had a male medalist in 30 years. BULLSHIT. In the last 30 years, these are the Mongolians who have won world medals.

Ganzorig, Mandakhnaran 3rd world
Bayaraa, Naranbaatar 2nd world
Oyunbuleg, Purevbaatar 2nd world
Tserenbaatar, Tsogtbayar 3rd world
Enkhbayar, Loodoyn 3rd world 89'
Enkhee, Avirmedin 2nd world 86'
Bold, Buyandelger 2nd world 85'
Enkhbayar, Loodoyn 3rd world 85'
Bold, Buyandelger 2nd world 83'

Care to backtrack?

Back to the point: I think people are being a bit unfair here to wrestlers. Because a wrestler has a difficult time winning world or Olympic medals in Judo doenst mean that they arent the most dominant group of fighters in the UFC; It simply means they dont often switch to judo and dominate at the highest echelon of the sport. No athletes at the world or Olympic level do.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

To return to the topic: Isn't it so that most "competition styles" in Judo don't lend themselves all that well to mma, as they tend to rely on grip fighting and gaming the rules (don't remember exactly how this was motivated, believe I read something to that effect on either Rousey's moms blog, or somewhere). Rousey seems to be a somewhat unique example, being a newaza and armbar specialist. I mean, this has to some extent been true for wrestlers also, there are quite a few whose wrestling hasn't translated all that well to mma. I'm sure there are Judokas that have styles that could transfer well.
As someone already said, it's perhaps hard to say since the sample size is pretty small.

I think the problem in MMA is in fact the diversity of judo styles judoka bring. Guys like Lombard and even Rick Hawn dont use any judo or hardly any at all because they fall in love with their hands, while guys like Karo and Hettes actually try to use Judo techniques in MMA.