Judo techniques: Why don't they beat wrestlers?

[Saenchai]

Of course the classic BJJ_Rage argument that if you trained anything else in your life before entering MMA you are automatically not a judoka. Fedor was in the Russian national team, you dont get there by training judo on the side.

Lombard is doing great with a judo background if you ask me, but since he isnt trying to win by ippon he is immediatly not a judoka, but Weidmann is a wrestler despite the fact that he won by KTFO of A Silva, not outwrestling him

Everyone seems to avoid that fact. Might as well say white people generally win more mma fights than anyone else.

 

[Rod1]

[YT]u6amt4Gc0uo[/YT]

Mighty American Wrestlers or MAWs losing wrestling matches, note that the Iranian is controlling the matwork and notice that there are no instant standups and if anyone gets saved by an standup is the MAW.

 

[Uchi Mata]

[YT]u6amt4Gc0uo[/YT]

Mighty American Wrestlers or MAWs losing wrestling matches, note that the Iranian is controlling the matwork and notice that there are no instant standups and if anyone gets saved by an standup is the MAW.

Is your point that Iranians are better freestyle wrestlers than Americans? That's often the case (individual mileage may vary), but most of the UFC fighters having success with wrestling are folkstyle guys which places a much greater emphasis on grinding ground control and rides. Even though I think that superior athleticism of wrestlers has as much to do with their success as wrestling (guys like Dan Henderson, Koscheck, and even Rashad don't really use much wrestling anymore), you can't ignore that they are more successful on average than Judo or BJJ guys. I do think that if high level Judoka from France and Japan who are roughly equal in terms of athleticism to American D1 wrestlers got into MMA they'd probably have a similar level of success, but I don't see it happening anytime soon mostly for cultural reasons.

 

[Rod1]

Is your point that Iranians are better freestyle wrestlers than Americans? That's often the case (individual mileage may vary), but most of the UFC fighters having success with wrestling are folkstyle guys which places a much greater emphasis on grinding ground control and rides. Even though I think that superior athleticism of wrestlers has as much to do with their success as wrestling (guys like Dan Henderson, Koscheck, and even Rashad don't really use much wrestling anymore), you can't ignore that they are more successful on average than Judo or BJJ guys. I do think that if high level Judoka from France and Japan who are roughly equal in terms of athleticism to American D1 wrestlers got into MMA they'd probably have a similar level of success, but I don't see it happening anytime soon mostly for cultural reasons.

My point is that freestyle wrestling control is the same or better than that of folkstyle. The Iranians won those matches with MATWORK, not with throws.

Its not judo without a gi, there are no instant standups, they standup when its only clear that there is stalling going on.

And i dont think the japanese or french would have the same level of success because Americans also have access to great boxing and wrestling. Russians on the other hand, they have great boxing, judo, sambo, wrestling and pretty much any combat sport.

And athleticism isnt something that its reserved for American wrestlers, there have been a lot of American wrestlers whose gas tanks leave much to be desired.

King Mo, Randleman, Coleman, Carwin, Lesnar, they were all prone to gassing due to explosiveness, and you have people like GSP, Diaz bros, Pettis, Anderson Silva, who dont come from an elite amateur sport whose cardio and athleticism is on par with that of wrestlers.

 

[Crossface9]

Of course the classic BJJ_Rage argument that if you trained anything else in your life before entering MMA you are automatically not a judoka. Fedor was in the Russian national team, you dont get there by training judo on the side.

Lombard is doing great with a judo background if you ask me, but since he isnt trying to win by ippon he is immediatly not a judoka, but Weidmann is a wrestler despite the fact that he won by KTFO of A Silva, not outwrestling him

I agree with that. People have styles/backgrounds. That's what makes MMA so good. Seeing the Wrestler vs the Boxer, BJJ vs Karate. Unless a wrestler or were to abandon his art. Seems if anything wrestling might have the most cases of abandoning they're art or what have you. Some people think they only need BJJ on the ground, wrestlers abandoning wrestling for KO's or BJJ, He is the best wrestler at his MMA/BJJ gym and doesn't have a wrestling class or train with better wrestlers.

 

[Crossface9]

Judo's really sporty, and the big throw is what people like to see. It's always been the ideal of Judo. Wrestling seems to be about dominating your opponent, Judo is more about catching them in a moment of weakness to send them flying, it just so happens that wrestling's rule set and goals are closer to MMA's than Judo's. Of course, on the street a big throw on concrete is going to be killer and if you're decent at Judo and the other guy isn't you're not likely to go down with him in a bad position, but for MMA it's both not as dangerous to take a throw (mats and all), and guys can take advantage of your bad post throw positioning.

OK, that helps me understand more. You still shouldn't rely too much on you're throw though, what if the guy has a tremendous pain threshold, or hes on something or turns out hes a good grappler? I'd feel much better knowing I can control and or finish the guy, whether it be on the feet or on the ground. That's like a boxer relying too much on his boxing in a street fight, what happens when you break you're hand? Grappling usually always beats striking in MMA but street fights are a whole nother world.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

the problem was that even in PRIDE, judokas never had much of success.

Well Fedor was the GOAT of Pride and came from a judo background. Hidehiko Yoshida also did better than most people thought he would to the point that people thought his matches were works.

There were some judokas that sucked for sure though. However, I think a lot of it is confirmation bias. Obviously some judokas did very well, however, I guess to some people unless they all beat everyone and have perfect records then they 'didnt have much success'.

I personally didnt think the Hammer House guys did that well except for Coleman winning the GP in 2000. However, someone earlier said they 'kicked ass' in Pride and used examples like Shogun breaking his arm accidentally off a Coleman takedown as an example. :icon_conf

My point was though that there was a shit-ton of judokas in Pride simply because its a Japanese organization. And that rule of thumb would be true in any country. If you have an MMA org in Brazil you will see Capoeira guys in it, any other country in the world then no.

 

[Uchi Mata]

OK, that helps me understand more. You still shouldn't rely too much on you're throw though, what if the guy has a tremendous pain threshold, or hes on something or turns out hes a good grappler? I'd feel much better knowing I can control and or finish the guy, whether it be on the feet or on the ground. That's like a boxer relying too much on his boxing in a street fight, what happens when you break you're hand? Grappling usually always beats striking in MMA but street fights are a whole nother world.

I mean, if you're worried about fighting trained guys and having multiple ways to beat people then you should probably just train MMA. I'm not so concerned with pain threshold as with knocking the wind out of someone, making them break something (an untrained person falling on cement is at pretty high risk of breaking and arm or wrist on the fall), or just straight knocking them out if you land them on their head. Wrestlers shoot, what if you broke your patella shooting on concrete? It's possible, but I don't think it's a reason to think that wrestling is bad for self defense. And frankly if you're a trained boxer and you break your hand on someone's face in a streetfight, I think there's a pretty good chance you hit them hard enough to end the whole thing. Basically with the exception of freak occurrences, I don't think any trained, competitive fighter is going to have a problem with any untrained person on the street.

 

[QingTian]

OK, that helps me understand more. You still shouldn't rely too much on you're throw though, what if the guy has a tremendous pain threshold, or hes on something or turns out hes a good grappler? I'd feel much better knowing I can control and or finish the guy, whether it be on the feet or on the ground. That's like a boxer relying too much on his boxing in a street fight, what happens when you break you're hand? Grappling usually always beats striking in MMA but street fights are a whole nother world.

Sorry but do you Judo? You talk about control but that is the essence of any grappling style. Even without throwing I can stop someone from striking me. It's about controlling the grips, distance, posture, movement, etc. That doesn't change whether standing or not.

The throw follows control just like a submission follows control. Otherwise you're doing it wrong.

But on throws, I'm pretty sure pain threshold isn't going to save anyone I throw on concrete. And, it's a lot harder to roll over when nobody is holding on to your gi.

 

[Rod1]

Henry Cejudo is probably the best freestyle wrestler currently in MMA that didnt wrestled at college level, he doesnt looks like he is any trouble with lack of control.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Of course the classic BJJ_Rage argument that if you trained anything else in your life before entering MMA you are automatically not a judoka. Fedor was in the Russian national team, you dont get there by training judo on the side.

Lombard is doing great with a judo background if you ask me, but since he isnt trying to win by ippon he is immediatly not a judoka, but Weidmann is a wrestler despite the fact that he won by KTFO of A Silva, not outwrestling him

when fedor was asked why he doesnt train bjj, you know what he said, I DONT BECAUSE SAMBO IS BETTER... read that? SAMBO. He considers himself a SAMBO fighter, not a judoka, but I still said I'll give you that, because of his judo background.

Lombard is doing just fine, by knocking peoples head out, and hsa been doing it since his early days, how much judo have we seen on him? well, not much, but certanly it wasnt enough to get him by okamis wrestling... And Weidman kod AS out, but also has shown great wrestling and ground game through his career, Chris Weidman is not a pure wrestler either, hes a complete grappler.

 

[Crossface9]

Sorry but do you Judo? You talk about control but that is the essence of any grappling style. Even without throwing I can stop someone from striking me. It's about controlling the grips, distance, posture, movement, etc. That doesn't change whether standing or not.

The throw follows control just like a submission follows control. Otherwise you're doing it wrong.

But on throws, I'm pretty sure pain threshold isn't going to save anyone I throw on concrete. And, it's a lot harder to roll over when nobody is holding on to your gi.

I don't, I was talking about controlling you're opponent after the throw. Uchi Mata seemed to agree with me. Wrestling is much more about control and Judo is more sporty and about flashy throws. Not to say it can't be vice versa though. There's probably Judo gyms with excellent newaza, its just IJF has been a tyrant with all the rules. Just like how pro wrestling became fixed and the other part got submissions taken out...

 

[SFCFighter]

Rod1 is clearly just an ignorant anti-American pro-Judo troll

if he knew anything about wrestling he would know that the ruleset of freestyle and folkstyle dictate why one values control and why one values exposure and why that creates two significantly different styles

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Henry Cejudo is probably the best freestyle wrestler currently in MMA that didnt wrestled at college level, he doesnt looks like he is any trouble with lack of control.

cejudo wrestled folkystyle for years prior to going to doing freestyle, he was a 4 times state champion...

 

[Dirty Holt]

My point is that freestyle wrestling control is the same or better than that of folkstyle. The Iranians won those matches with MATWORK, not with throws.

Its not judo without a gi, there are no instant standups, they standup when its only clear that there is stalling going on.

And i dont think the japanese or french would have the same level of success because Americans also have access to great boxing and wrestling. Russians on the other hand, they have great boxing, judo, sambo, wrestling and pretty much any combat sport.

And athleticism isnt something that its reserved for American wrestlers, there have been a lot of American wrestlers whose gas tanks leave much to be desired.

King Mo, Randleman, Coleman, Carwin, Lesnar, they were all prone to gassing due to explosiveness, and you have people like GSP, Diaz bros, Pettis, Anderson Silva, who dont come from an elite amateur sport whose cardio and athleticism is on par with that of wrestlers.

Yes or No: In the absolute upper tier of of the sport, over time, American folkstyle wrestlers have had more success than any other group of fighters? This is a yes no question and should be very easy to answer.

All of your other arguments are not related. Yes, Iran beat the USA this year in freestyle. Yes, there have been some champs in the UFC that were not folkstyle wrestlers. Yes, in small lower level organizations there are foreigners who are performing well. Look at the UFC championships and Pride GP's over time. It is overwhelmingly American folkstyle wrestlers with Brazilians being a distant 2nd.

 

[Crossface9]

The most ridiculous thing I have ever heard martial arts related is when people say wrestlers are not wrestlers anymore when they learn submission holds.

 

[Kaffe]

but certanly it wasnt enough to get him by okamis wrestling.

Okami's base is judo. Did he become a wrestler just because he started training wrestling and BJJ afterwards?

Or is he a judoka when he loses and a wrestler when he wins?

 

[Rod1]

when fedor was asked why he doesnt train bjj, you know what he said, I DONT BECAUSE SAMBO IS BETTER... read that? SAMBO. He considers himself a SAMBO fighter, not a judoka, but I still said I'll give you that, because of his judo background.

Lombard is doing just fine, by knocking peoples head out, and hsa been doing it since his early days, how much judo have we seen on him? well, not much, but certanly it wasnt enough to get him by okamis wrestling... And Weidman kod AS out, but also has shown great wrestling and ground game through his career, Chris Weidman is not a pure wrestler either, hes a complete grappler.

Again, do you think you get to be on the Russian national team by training Judo on the side?

And what about Jose Aldo? you keep parading him as a BJJ artist and he wins by striking, double standard much?

 

[Rod1]

Rod1 is clearly just an ignorant anti-American pro-Judo troll

if he knew anything about wrestling he would know that the ruleset of freestyle and folkstyle dictate why one values control and why one values exposure and why that creates two significantly different styles

Anti-American? just because you guys started to throw shit on international wrestling and i stood up for it?

Freestyle also values control, but it also doesnt punishes attempting throws as hard as folkstyle.

I would rather say, that Freestyle values aggresiveness, while Folkstyle values defensiveness and stalling.

Just look at MATWORK of international wrestling, its superb, only a blind American jingoist troll will look at international matwork and say its inferior.

Also forget lets the fact that American get destroyed on the mat when it comes to international wrestling, Americans who win international matches usually do so with extremely fast and powerful takedowns, not with technical matwork.

Ben Askren was a god in NCAA, he went international and he got destroyed, NOT because of the apparent limit on matwork, but because international wrestlers are beasts. Ben Askren also has had a hard time in SW despite the fact that he was an NCAA god he cant translate that control into SW.

 

[nefti]

this is an epic thread.

That being said, stop with this "if the mats were not padded in mma Judo will kill people" bullcrap. Official judo tatames are springed also so don't ask for something in mma that your own martial art doesn't have.