judaism, religion or race?

I also thought that part of the impetus for those developments was the harsh treatment under Roman emperors, although I can't remember if it was pre-/post- Trajan?

Before Pompey conquered Palestine in 63BC, the Jews had forced the Idumeans to adopt Judaism under threat of complete execution. In Pella (north of Jerusalem) , tens of thousands of Greek civilians were killed because they refused to adopt Judaism. These two events were in the century before Pompey, when the last Jewish monarchy existed.
 
Judaism is a religion, a genetic grouping, and a culture/ethnicity. Jews can fit within any combination of those.
 
Just a religion full of people who think they are better and more important than every other person on the planet.
 
It's a religion and a "culture."

I'm a caucasian. I'm a white guy. That's my race. But culturally, I am Jewish. I can't really explain this, outside of maybe for the fact that outside of a short period of Hasmonean, the Jewish people have always been tight knit about who they accept into their religion, and a culture sprang from that.

This is different to Christianity and Islam, which has always been pretty accepting of everyone and anyone.

It is kind of odd to me. I referred to my girlfriend as a Catholic once, and she corrected me and said "I'm Atheist. Not a Catholic." This made me relatively aware that other religions don't consider themselves as part of a greater culture: once she gave up the religion, she is no longer Catholic, whereas I don't believe any of that bullshit mumbo jumbo but I still consider myself a Jew.
 
An Abrahamic religion. Nothing more. They invent chosen people and all that to put them selves above others. Then when you shoot it down they pull the race card.
 
I'm married to a jewess.

so I jokingly posted this short clip in this video because Gunny's post made me think of it. my intent was to goof around, nothing more, as I do so from time to time in the WR.

here's Jihad Joe McPherson's response

A guy says he married a Jewess and you likened it to his face to Jim Carrey's character telling Broderick's character that he had just slept with a prostitute in a long drawn-out scene of Matthew's character gagging etc. But that's supposed to just be a bit of humor that everyone gets because it's a Jewess we're laughing over?

truthfully, I can't begin to think how anyone could come to such a conclusion, or am I crazy here?
 
so I jokingly posted this short clip in this video because Gunny's post made me think of it. my intent was to goof around, nothing more, as I do so from time to time in the WR.

here's Jihad Joe McPherson's response



truthfully, I can't begin to think how anyone could come to such a conclusion, or am I crazy here?

No no, you're jimmies aren't rustled lol.

The guy said he married a Jewess and you post that video not even addressing what he asserted with his post. Doesn't that just show how making jokes about Jews is okay in everyday american pop culture and no one bats an eye?
 
That classification was done in the XIX century and is as unscientific as it gets, the genetic relationship between caucasoids is far closer to a race than the genetic relationship among black people or about asians, native americans an south and southeast asians.

What it means is that the middle-east, north-africa and europe were never really disconnected from each other at all points of history genetic swapping among those populations have existed, not so true about native americans (whose east asian origin is put into question with the multiple migrations model), native americans and black people have a huge genetic variation to simply be qualified as race.

You are factually incorrect to suggest that this analysis has been debunked by modern science because it originated in the 19th century. Quantum mechanics originated in the 19th century, are you suggesting that because of its age it is not a widely verified theory?

Modern genetic studies have completely and utterly verified the broad genetic distinctions between the races, in fact. Ask a forensic anthropologist: From the -very bones- of people, you can identify their race. This is broadly in line with evolutionary theory which would suggest that different races will emerge in different environments over the thousands of years they have spent in those environments. We have the genetic studies that show just that, with hundreds of mutations common to the races that have such massive influence on basic morphology (skeletal, muscularature, skin, organs), intelligence, gestation and maturation, twinning, suspectibility to diseases, et cetera. In fact, it would be quite legitimate to go as far as to say that in most other animals, the races of mankind would be distinct species (albeit like many species that can produce fertile offspring with their immediate relations).

Whereas I will agree that Caucasoids are more closely related than Mongoloids, because the American Indian lineages split without posisbility of even remote intermixture for about 10,000 some years, whereas Caucasoids have been interbreeding at the periphery amongst themselves for quite some time, that doesn't deny that the Caucasoid peoples are distinct and that you can identify legitimate populations amongst them. The Irish and the Indians are both Caucasoids, but it is ridiculous to suggest that they aren't discernible. In fact, the best distinction between the Caucasoid race would be:

Indo-European/Indigeneous European
Semitic
Dravidian

And maybe...

Cushitic.

I don't know if the genetic studies on Ethiopians would place them firmly in the Semitic family.

The Negroid race, meanwhile, is not as genetically diverse as you would like to suggest. The lineages depart because they are most ancient, but autosomal DNA is fairly uniform across Sub-Saharan Africa. Even pygmies and Khoisians have interbred with Bantu enough to justify saying they all are one race, though clearly Pygmies and Khoisians are distinct, in part, from the Bantu. Many of the Negroid features are common amongst them, though.
 
@Jihad Joe:

what? do you even know what wodrplay is? how dense are you?

you don't even know what the word rustled means. besides, why are you defending women, I thought you were gay & hated women
 
How do one even looks hispanic? also at 90% european you basically look 100% european, it takes around 30% of genetic ancestry to show particular traits.

"How do you look Hispanic"? have you not been around Hispanic people?
 
@Jihad Joe:

what? do you even know what wodrplay is? how dense are you?

you don't even know what the word rustled means. besides, why are you defending women, I thought you were gay & hated women

Okay, okay, okay . . . simmer, simmer. I love you too bebop22k. I don't hate women, not gay, don't hate Muslims. What else . . .
 
haha you must be foaming at the mouth reading my posts. settle down bro & have some ju-ice.
 
A quick note, modern anthropology as a discipline largely rejects the idea of 'race' (on fairly spurious grounds incidentally), so appealing to the 'anthropological' definition of race is fairly odd since there is no other discipline which is so vehemently and bitterly opposed to the concept.

Almost all serious genetic anthropologists agree with the reality of race. Only the extreme Social Scientist anthropologists deny the existence of race. I choose to disregard people who have a political agenda to deny obvious scientific facts, and falsify data (as Gould did with skulls) in order to justify it.

The evidence is just far, far too massive to deny from an evolutionary and genetic basis. You can list off profound and enduring biological differences between the races that clearly distinguish between populations in humanity.

As I noted in a previous post, you can identify:

Morphological differences - including the skeleton, musculature, skin, and organs.
Differences in gestation, twinning, and maturation.
Differences in intelligence.
Differences in reflexive responses.
Differences in disease suspectibility.
Differences in frequency of blood type.
Different Y-Dna and M-DNA lineages.

In fact, it would be a serious challenge against evolutionary theory if there were not human races. It would deny that environmental isolation produces manifest change in populations, undermining Darwinian selection entirely. In fact, it would require a miraculous occurence for human populations to not be dramatically different based on the thousands of years of development apart from one another.

We have reached the point where anyone with a few hundred bucks can have their blood tested and get an accurate test for the percentage of DNA they have from various regions of the world. This would be impossible if race was a social construct, as every population would be equally "baseline human" otherwise.

Is there crossover between the races? Sure, at the periphery. Have Anatolians seen more admixture between Indo-European, Semitic (both Caucasoid), and Turkic (Mongoloid) populations? Sure. Has Ireland experienced nearly as much? No. Has India experienced perhaps even more? (Maybe). But most of the exchanges of genes have been between distinct members of a broader race, than between distinct races. The one exception to this would actually be the Turkic element in the Middle East, which did contribute a significant Mongoloid admixture with the Caucasoid populations, although the ethnicity of most Anatolians share more in common with Southeast Europeans, and the Indo-Aryan/Dravidian admixture is more prominent in INdia.

It's really a popular concept that reflects the clustering of visible phenotypes, *reflecting* the relative genetic isolation of the individual's ancestors. In this sense it is biologically meaningful, but that is not because of anthropology. And this popular conception is not based on hidden genetic correlations, such that people who look identical are 'different races.'

Um, very rarely do people who look identical come from different races. And I am not saying that our political or social distinctions necessarily correlate with actual races (for instance, the US insistence that all Caucasoids are 'white', when the term 'white' means something different from Caucasoid, and certainly doesn't include Mesitzo populations). But yes, we can speak of anthropological races which make meaningful contributions to scientific discourse across the disciplines of archaeology, medicine, genetic mapping, et cetera.

As for Ashkenazim specifically, almost all genetic analysis shows them in-between Europeans and Middle Easterners (as stated in your own quotes above), and this is perfectly consistent with all the data indicating that is because they originated as Euro/ME hybrids. The narrowness of their genetics, and its being so prone to weird diseases, is best explained by the spectacular *bottlenecks* that Ashkenazim genetics have undergone, particularly the one where almost all Ashkenazim genetics descend from a group of around 300 people who lived a mere 700 (!) years ago. Amazing ... if you want to look for the 'specialness' of Ashkenazim genetics, these intense medieval genetic bottlenecks are where you'd start. For whatever reason, a relatively tiny group of medieval Ashkenazim spawned almost all of the modern Ashkenazim. Why that is so is a very interesting question indeed ... if you want to exalt the 'special' nature of Ashkenazim genetics, this is a much more plausible and easily demonstrated source rather than extolling ancient distinctiveness.

The half-distance works also along the lines of Israel as being broadly between Europe and Middle Eastern because the Jewish ethnogenesis occurred in Palestine, with populations of mixed ancestry present there. The Sea Peoples, the Philistines, Egyptians, Anatolian Indo-Europeans (Hittites), et cetera, were all present in ancient Palestine, and the Jews have long ties to this region.

Has there been some European admixture? Probably. But Ashkenazi have strongly ties with Sephardic and other Jews, much moreso than they have to any population in Europe. As noted: Eastern Europeans, where the Ashkenazi have lived for hundreds of years, share virtually no relation to Ashkenazi populations. At the very least, we're talking on the order of 1000 to nearly 2000 years of ethnic isolation. That is extremely enough to speak of a distinct people, an population isolate (or sub-race) of the Semitic, or if you prefer, a Semitic with Indo-European admixture family.

The OT was largely written prior to the conversion era. Judaism around 400 BC was a miniscule priestly cult, which presided over a set of mythical writings that exalted the priests and demanded absolute loyalty unto them and their temple. By 50 AD, however, there were Jews everywhere. What you see is a conflict between actual identification as "Jews," and popular conversions, and political use of forced conversion, and the priestly attempts to rail against foreigners. The Book of Ruth exemplifies this schizophrenia. In fact the OT would hardly have needed to rail against foreigner marriage *if it wasn't in fact such a widespread and prominent practice amongst the Jews*. These are priest bitching about the reality they face, and worried about losing control over their subjects.

It almost certainly was not so problematic for anyone but the ruling class. As we know from history, the most cosmopolitan of all peoples tend to be the rulers. Political alliances lead to marriages across cultures to solidify bonds of peace. The invectives against foreign wives were directed against kings and other men of high position who could get themselves foreign wives. I doubt the average farmer, carpenter, et cetera, was bagging him a foreign hottie. The Jews were not known for living in cosmopolitan cities or having an empire that encapsulated anything but the most closely related tribes of people.

"Jews everywhere" isn't entirely accurate. The Jews were clustered in Palestine and in enclaves in Anatolia. The Jews in Anatolia went there when Rome came in to make their fortune. It wasn't like you'd find Jews in Eboracum (York) at this time.

There were also, if I recall, a significant portion of Jews who remained in Babylon post-exile. This population was present in Babylon up till the Iraq wars of the last 20 years!

I would also not characterize Judaism as "miniscule" in 500 BC. Archaeological evidence does suggest a Jewish presence in the Holy Land. But it would be wrong to think of them as Romans or Persians in their extent of holdings, because that'd be ridiculous. The Bible exaggerates the importance of Judaism compared to other populations in the world, but it doesn't lie when it says "Jews were here in 500 BC". Whether or not it lies about where Jews come from beyond that - stories about Abraham and Moses - I can't tell you.
 
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She looks hispanic to me...

Yes, which is why I used her as an example.

She was pretty shocked to find out that she wasn't predominately American Indian in her descent.



Jessica Alba's DNA test on George Lopez.

0% East Asian.

0% Sub-Saharan African.

13% American Indian

87% European.

Odd that this genetic test distinguishes between American Indian and East Asian genetics, as usually the genetic studies lump those together due to the fact that most East Asian genetics match with American Indians (indicating their common descent). It also omits Australoid, though I doubt that had much bearing on Ms. Alba's results, as she has no known connection to Australoid populations.
 
Ashkenazis are mainly european, the reason why they all share similar Y chromosome is because there was a lot of interbreeding, im pretty sure that under those standards a lot of closed-up euro populations would be their own race too.

Very few European populations have ever seen such profound endogamy as is practiced amongst the Jews in such a small population.

Endogamy amongst European peoples is practiced over a much larger population and geographic group.

Most ethnicities have broadly bred only amongst themselves. English with English, French with French. But the English and French are both much more numerous, and much more "diverse" in that sense, and so their inbreeding (in the sense of breeding with the same families) is lower.

Ashkenazi have to be genetically screened to avoid too closely related matches with people who share damaging genetic combinations. This is not a sign of "inbreeding" - in the sense of incest - but a small population mating amongst themselves.
 
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