judaism, religion or race?

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by squeezewax, Jan 21, 2015.

  1. squeezewax

    squeezewax Brown Belt

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    i did a search online, but results were mixed. some say one thing, some the other. i think jews consider judaism as a race?
    i always thought of it as a religion. however when it is revealed on a tv show that such and such is jewish you can usually see physical characteristics that bear this out. so that would be it's a race then?

    but when a non- jewish female wants to marry a male jew, she has to convert to judaism, so isn't that a relgion then?

    i understand a person can be israeli if they are born in that country, even for someone who isn't jewish.

    is the jewish thing a third option not mentioned perhaps?

    muslims tend to think they are also born a muslim don't they? i don't think christians do?

    it seems to be one of those questions where people on both sides swear they're correct.
     
  2. Oiler

    Oiler Purple Belt

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    I am a jew. I guess i consider us a "people"

    Its something more than a religion, to me at least.
     
  3. europe1

    europe1 It´s a nice peninsula to Asia

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    Depends on which branch of Judaism they belong to. The more traditional branches tend to think of Judaism as an ethnic-religion. Only ethnic jews can belong to Jewish religion. The two go hand-in-hand. It's part of belonging to God's chosen people.

    Other branches of Judaism - such as Reform Jews - tend to see Judaism as a faith instead of an etnic-religion. Being a Jew is about what you believe, not whom your ancestors where.
     
  4. AlucardNatasrd

    AlucardNatasrd Blue Belt

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    There are two entities at play here.

    You have Judaism the religion. This is a religion which blends what Christians call the Old Testament with the modern, Rabbinical and Talmudic Judaism, which the Jews claim is an ancient oral tradition, but which developed in the post-Temple period. The latter tradition stems from the dominant Jewish intellectuals of the Roman period, the Pharisees (yes, -those- Pharisees).

    Then you have the Jewish people, a (sub-)race of people whom traditionally have avowed the religion of Judaism, but which need not in order to be a Jew. You can be a Communist, an Atheist, a Christian, a Moslem, a Buddhist, whatever - and still be a Jew.

    The Jews are a genetically distinct branch of the Semitic family of the Caucasoids. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jewish_origins

    There is interbreeding amongst Jews and whites, Ethiopians, Semites, and Turks, but the Jews are primarily their own people. The genetic studies show this very well, as does the fact that Jews suffer from a ton of genetic disorders of their own kind.

    Here is a Jew on whether they are white:

    http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/ashk...te-response-to-haaretz-article/#ixzz3LIpmEt77

    The answer is: Empathatically "no". The author contends Judaism is closest in approximation to a Middle Eastern tribal identity, which is correct to say, although so engrained it has produced an overwhelmingly distinct people.
     
  5. Which Doctor

    Which Doctor The ATT Heel Stable/Faction Belt

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    It's a religion. The physical similarities within the religion are are due to millennia of inbreeding. And because they stole the Sumerian alien DNA when they broke away from the Hyksos.
     
  6. SpidermanISGOAT

    SpidermanISGOAT Purple Belt

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    Religion and Race

    Jews are a "sub-race". Ashkenazi Jews for instance are like +90% European ethnically but have some Semitic ancestry if I am not mistaken.

    You can be non-Jewish religiously and still be considered "Jewish" by Israeli law if you were born to a Jewish mother (even if she was not Jewish religiously). Israel and Jewish law treats Jews as a race. If one is born to a a Jewish mother one is considered "Jewish". Furthermore you can "become" Jewish through adopting Judaism as your practice aka 'religion'.

    It is an outdated concept because many people alive today have been born to Jewish mothers but despise Judaism and many American or liberal European Jews have no affiliation with Israel or any desire to move there. As such this worries religious Jewish scholars because world Jewry's numbers are declining and an increasing % of Jews are abandoning their culture and religion.
     
  7. Roy radin

    Roy radin White Belt

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    The discovery channel did a show years ago asking the question is it a race or religion they used dna ,the results were the majority could be traced back to a part of Russia near the Caucasus mountains(same place where the word causasian comes from) and a mass conversion around the 1200s, certain generic traits such as the hooked nose come from this region.....the show was as far as i can remember pulled after complaints from jewish groups.
     
  8. SpidermanISGOAT

    SpidermanISGOAT Purple Belt

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    Better explanation.
     
  9. AlucardNatasrd

    AlucardNatasrd Blue Belt

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    You are.

    Ashkenazi Jews are primarily semitic, marginally European.

    And actually, very few people from Jewish families "despise" being Jewish. Very few Jews renounce Jewish identity. They might renounce the Jewish religion, but even the most secular of Jews - say, a Woody Allen - ever denies his Jewish ethnic and cultural background. In fact, the more secular, the more Jewish they are, in many respects. They identify more keenly with being a Jew.

    And interbreeding is relatively rare still and religious Jews have a huge birth rate. Very soon, the majority of Jews are going to be Hasids, as they have like 7 kids a woman!
     
  10. AlucardNatasrd

    AlucardNatasrd Blue Belt

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    Source on the Khazar hypothesis being genetically verified on the discovery channel?
     
  11. SpidermanISGOAT

    SpidermanISGOAT Purple Belt

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    Surely they have more European dna.

    How else do we explain Scarlett Johansson and Diana Argon? Isn't blue and green eyes a European trait? And many Jews have these traits. The interbreeding clearly gave them an overwhelmingly European appearance.
     
  12. AlucardNatasrd

    AlucardNatasrd Blue Belt

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    Scar Jo and Diana Argon have white ancestry. This doesn't mean all Jews have white ancestry.

    Scarlett Johansson was born in New York City.[6] Her father, Karsten Johansson, is a Danish-born architect originally from Copenhagen,[7] and her paternal grandfather, Ejner Johansson, was a screenwriter and director. Her mother, Melanie Sloan, a producer, comes from an Ashkenazi Jewish family from the Bronx;

    Her daddy is a Dane, her mom is a Jew.

    I am not saying white-Jewish mulattos don't exist.
     
  13. Gunny

    Gunny Gold Belt

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    I'm married to a jewess. The answer is, Judaism is a religion, a nationality, a tribe and an ethnicity. Individual Jews identify by any one, any combination of or all of the above.
     
  14. Gunny

    Gunny Gold Belt

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  15. 22k

    22k ベルセルク Yellow Card

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  16. AlucardNatasrd

    AlucardNatasrd Blue Belt

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    Dude, I sincerely could not understand half of this. This was incomprehensible.

    Please do not write a stream of consciousness rant.
     
  17. jeffk

    jeffk Brown Belt

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    This is about as good as you can cover this topic in a couple minutes.

    [YT]/watch?v=oVkj9BnnCLA&list=PLBB34C7A788D18357[/YT]
     
  18. Which Doctor

    Which Doctor The ATT Heel Stable/Faction Belt

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    Though I wasn't the poster, I can vouch that I've seen part of the genetic testing study on another forum about 5 years ago. The item that I saw also mentioned the Ethiopian genetic connection, which made me laugh as the euro jews had been trying to deny it for generations.
     
  19. TeTe

    TeTe Favorite Worst Nightmare Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Drsatandracula ftw
     
  20. Zankou

    Zankou Muscle and Hate Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    This is not really correct. Far and away the biggest genetic analysis of Ashkenazim was published in 2013, and has rather conclusively shown that the great majority of maternal DNA contribution in Ashkenazim was from European stock, with the men being Middle Eastern. So it seems that the Ashkenazim primarily derived from a mixture of male Jewish immigrants and female European converts, starting with a fairly small founding group.

    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2013/131008/ncomms3543/full/ncomms3543.html

    Overall conclusion: "Therefore, whereas on the male side there may have been a significant Near Eastern (and possibly east European/Caucasian) component in Ashkenazi ancestry, the maternal lineages mainly trace back to prehistoric Western Europe. These results emphasize the importance of recruitment of local women and conversion in the formation of Ashkenazi communities, and represent a significant step in the detailed reconstruction of Ashkenazi genealogical history."

    As to whether they comprise a 'race,' that word gets thrown around loosely ... they don't comprise a discrete population that is readily identifiable amongst all others by phenotypical traits. But they do represent a concentration of certain genetic traits, albeit very loosely integrated with European genetics. Part of that is due to 'bottleneck' effects that happened to Ashkenazim genetics at very times, however, concentrating them after the initial intermixing with European genetics. More colloquially, inbreeding, which followed the initial outbreeding. There was a MASSIVE bottleneck a mere 700 years ago, where basically a mere 300 or so Ashkenazim contributed almost all of the genetics that multiplied into the modern Ashkenazi gene pool.

    http://www.theoccidentalobserver.ne...ews-following-medieval-population-bottleneck/

    There used to be a ton of pretty dubious genetic analysis of these issues, going back and forth, but with these recent papers it looks like the data has finally gotten quite good.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015

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