Jones vs Cormier resume

So back in university I took a drug law course, and for our final project we had to write an essay on one of the current drug laws either on the books or being proposed. This was back when TRT was a thing and they were considering removing it so I did my project on that.

In the paper I outlined how true TRT, which is to bring a person's testosterone levels up to normal for their age group (and not testosterone abuse which is to go over that which is how everybody framed TRT) actually created a more level playing field by putting both fighters at normal levels of testosterone, whereas before one of them would be (presumably) at normal levels and the other low levels and the fighter with normal levels had an advantage. Of course the counter argument was that short of knowing the non-TRT fighters levels you'd have no idea if this actually was fair or not as they could be low too or naturally high, or even taking steroids themselves to go far over natural levels and they might not actually have similar levels. And of course there was the risk that the TRT fighter would just use his access to testosterone injections to go over his limits and get an advantage(a la Bigfoot), or even that the fighter having more testosterone in general, even if it was just to normal levels, could be an advantage as he was used to fighting without those levels.

My professor, who knew nothing about MMA or the sport in general, came back and said that an "advantages" argument against TRT can be countered considering that all athletes have different bodies, different minds, different coaches, different gyms, different nutrition, different lengths of experience, etc. Different testosterone levels are simply one of many differences between the athletes, and that there was never a level playing field in the first place, but at least TRT was attempting to actually put them categorically in one similar field by ensuring they would both be (presumably as you didn't know the non-TRT fighters levels) within normal levels. TRT, regulated by a TUE, actually created a more level playing field whereas you couldn't ensure that everybody had the same level of coaching or limb lengths or whatever.

But that was TRT, which was regulated by a TUE and not simply PEDs which are not. But those saying PEDs are unfair are coming from the mistaken belief that things were fair to begin with. There are a plethora of things that cause advantages and disadvantages to those fighting and different testosterone levels or EPO or whatever don't necessarily mean that fighter had the overall advantage.

I don't really understand any of this, no offense. You are saying that because there are inherent advantages within humans (testosterone, reach, height, muscle density, etc.) that taking PEDs is somehow equivalent? If I am mistaken, please correct me.

There is a saying that goes "play with the hand you are dealt". Altering the chemical composition of your body is not "leveling the playing field". If I am born poor, that does not mean I can steal money from people to "level the playing field". Steroids are illegal and PEDs are illegal within MMA. It's black and white. The problem with TRT is also the fact that some guys are 37 years old with years of training, your body naturally loses testosterone. Putting it back into your body is an unfair advantage because now you have more years of training and your body is suddenly 23 again. I was never for it to begin with. Retire like a normal fighter.
 
That's an exaggeration and an apologists view.

The dudes who test positive, get roasted. Here is a list of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Doping_cases_in_mixed_martial_arts

The ones who get defended are either:
A) old and people give them a pass
B) have a legit excuse like a tainted supplement (which is rare)
C) have a strange circumstance like Cro Cop admitting HGH to heal, when he didn't fail

Maybe I'm wrong, but over the course of my time following MMA and on Sherdog, most people are pretty rational when it comes to this stuff. People realize pro sports are riddled with PEDs. People realize guys can beat tests. However, some people stupidly apply the logic that "everyone is on them". I refuse to believe that. Consistency is key here. It's like people claiming Fedor used steroids because PRIDE didn't test, even though he passed at PRIDE 32 while others failed. Yet those same people don't apply the same logic to Rampage or Nick Diaz when they fought in PRIDE. And if everyone in PRIDE roided, it was a level playing field right? The arguments get selective.

I can somewhat agree with a lot of what you said. I am not apologizing for for anything. If you break the rules, you get punished and we move on. the rules and the punishments are reasonably established and should be observed. I am responding to the fact that people take things to the extreme and call for fighters entire careers to be scrubbed from the books and I have seen people be selective on their judgment with certain fighters. The list you provided says exactly that, rules are the rules, why should some get a pass? There has been more outrage toward some and less toward others and it has become more of a hot topic in recent years in my opinion.
Where we may disagree is where you say that sherdog is pretty rational about this stuff. I would say there are some rational people but they tend to be the minority or it appears that way because they are far less active.

The way we fix it is to stop speculating and claiming opinion as fact. If someone pops then for that moment they are guilty and they are punished. If they never pop then we should be willing to accept that regardless of our personal feelings. The commission catches someone, they overturn the fight and suspend and fine the fighter, they do not go beyond that.

I will admit that I contribute to the issue somewhat because I tease people when they go too far on either end of the scale for fun. I will step into the opposition role for entertainment which is not really helpful. Whether or not I think Jones has juiced for his entire career is irrelevant, he has been busted and he has passed also, how the hell would I know. I don't think that peds have quite the super dramatic effect that people claim on here, yes there are benefits, I have friends who are juiced so I know what benefits there are for them. Did they give enough of an edge for him to win that fight or would he have won anyway? Can't know for sure.
 
I can somewhat agree with a lot of what you said. I am not apologizing for for anything. If you break the rules, you get punished and we move on. the rules and the punishments are reasonably established and should be observed. I am responding to the fact that people take things to the extreme and call for fighters entire careers to be scrubbed from the books and I have seen people be selective on their judgment with certain fighters. The list you provided says exactly that, rules are the rules, why should some get a pass? There has been more outrage toward some and less toward others and it has become more of a hot topic in recent years in my opinion.
Where we may disagree is where you say that sherdog is pretty rational about this stuff. I would say there are some rational people but they tend to be the minority or it appears that way because they are far less active.

The way we fix it is to stop speculating and claiming opinion as fact. If someone pops then for that moment they are guilty and they are punished. If they never pop then we should be willing to accept that regardless of our personal feelings. The commission catches someone, they overturn the fight and suspend and fine the fighter, they do not go beyond that.

I will admit that I contribute to the issue somewhat because I tease people when they go too far on either end of the scale for fun. I will step into the opposition role for entertainment which is not really helpful. Whether or not I think Jones has juiced for his entire career is irrelevant, he has been busted and he has passed also, how the hell would I know. I don't think that peds have quite the super dramatic effect that people claim on here, yes there are benefits, I have friends who are juiced so I know what benefits there are for them. Did they give enough of an edge for him to win that fight or would he have won anyway? Can't know for sure.

I agree 100% with all of this. Maybe I overestimate the rational fans on Sherdog. I typically don't listen too much to the trolls who cite Joe Rogan as authority when it comes to "tainted coke with creatine cut with steroids". That stuff is so off base it's laughable.

My main concern is when people aren't consistent. For me, I consider Jon Jones and Josh Barnett to be career juicers, personally. Why? Because Jones had suspect T/E levels before the 1st DC fight, then failed twice since USADA came in. We've seen what he looked like when "powerlifting" and what he looks like out of competition. It's utterly ridiculous. I can't go back in time and prove he was using since the start, but all reasonable logic points to him doing so. Barnett is a dirt bag, he's been busted so many times I don't even view the guy as a real fighter honestly.

I do agree PEDs don't make you a great fighter, being a great fighter makes you a great fighter. PEDs have benefits as you have said. I too have friends (more so acquaintances) that use steroids and it's pretty outrageous to see them increase their strength by 50% in 3 months. PEDs are enough to elevate already very good fighters to the elite. Especially the ones that help stamina.
 
I think Jones.

Plus, like someone else said, DC's name on Jones resume is bigger than any name on DC's resume.
 
Jones beat DC twice and ran through the who's who of fighters like a hot knife through butter.

Saying jones didn't beat DC (twice) is like saying the Fab 5 didn't make it to back to back Final 4s, that Reggie Bush didn't win a Heisman, and the HR race of '98 didn't happen.

Say what you want. They all happened.

The butter was more like cold, refrigerated butter in the Gustafsson fight.
 
I don't really understand any of this, no offense. You are saying that because there are inherent advantages within humans (testosterone, reach, height, muscle density, etc.) that taking PEDs is somehow equivalent? If I am mistaken, please correct me.

No, just that many people seem to oddly treat PEDs as the only type of advantage possible to the fighters in that fight if one of them fails a PED test, and consider nothing else in regards to the fight or the fighters' preparations that also went into it. I mean, for instance, you could have one guy on PEDs with a shitty coach and training partners and the other guy without PEDs coached by Firas Zahabi and got to train at Tri Star. Sure one fighter has a likely physical edge, but the other guy has a likely strategical edge. Is it really fair here to single out that PEDs were the only "unfair" thing about this fight? There's many ways in which the fight could've been slanted in either fighter's favour, even if one guy was on PEDs. The guy on PEDs doesn't automatically mean he had the best or most advantages.
 
DC resume : pretty good
Jon Dope Jones : pretty good with an asterisk
 
Who do you think has the better resume, excluding the two wins over DC. does Jones has a better win than Stipe and Rumble 2X?

Jones is undefeated and has the two wins over DC, including making him suicidal and then a KTFO.

Jones is the most complete fighter the UFC has ever seen. He owns DC's soul. DC will go to his grave knowing JBJ was superior to him.
 
Cormier --> 13 or 14 and 0 at HW.
Jones --> 0 HW fights.
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No, just that many people seem to oddly treat PEDs as the only type of advantage possible to the fighters in that fight if one of them fails a PED test, and consider nothing else in regards to the fight or the fighters' preparations that also went into it. I mean, for instance, you could have one guy on PEDs with a shitty coach and training partners and the other guy without PEDs coached by Firas Zahabi and got to train at Tri Star. Sure one fighter has a likely physical edge, but the other guy has a likely strategical edge. Is it really fair here to single out that PEDs were the only "unfair" thing about this fight? There's many ways in which the fight could've been slanted in either fighter's favour, even if one guy was on PEDs. The guy on PEDs doesn't automatically mean he had the best or most advantages.

I agree with that to an extent, but there is a difference between altering the composition of your body via illegal drugs vs. affording a better training camp or being taller. People will always have advantages in life, but that's life. That is why I brought up the money example, being born into a poor family doesn't mean you can do something illegal (steal) to level the playing field. You can, but you will be punished and criticized.
 
Who do you think has the better resume, excluding the two wins over DC. does Jones has a better win than Stipe and Rumble 2X?

Jones is undefeated and has the two wins over DC, including making him suicidal and then a KTFO.

Jones is the most complete fighter the UFC has ever seen. He owns DC's soul. DC will go to his grave knowing JBJ was superior to him.
 
Don't care. Life isn't fair. Let them all juice so we can see the best fights possible. Let athletes achieve their best form possible via hard work and science.

I'm more worried any doctors getting checks from pharmaceutical companies to prescribe drugs that a patient doesn't need.

You mean guys like Mark Kerr?

Pretty sure he was using steroids and was addicted to prescription opiods
 
I agree 100% with all of this. Maybe I overestimate the rational fans on Sherdog. I typically don't listen too much to the trolls who cite Joe Rogan as authority when it comes to "tainted coke with creatine cut with steroids". That stuff is so off base it's laughable.

My main concern is when people aren't consistent. For me, I consider Jon Jones and Josh Barnett to be career juicers, personally. Why? Because Jones had suspect T/E levels before the 1st DC fight, then failed twice since USADA came in. We've seen what he looked like when "powerlifting" and what he looks like out of competition. It's utterly ridiculous. I can't go back in time and prove he was using since the start, but all reasonable logic points to him doing so. Barnett is a dirt bag, he's been busted so many times I don't even view the guy as a real fighter honestly.

I do agree PEDs don't make you a great fighter, being a great fighter makes you a great fighter. PEDs have benefits as you have said. I too have friends (more so acquaintances) that use steroids and it's pretty outrageous to see them increase their strength by 50% in 3 months. PEDs are enough to elevate already very good fighters to the elite. Especially the ones that help stamina.

Tainted coke with creatine, cut with steroids. That made me lol. When I read that it was in rogans voice.
 
<{cruzshake}>

final form vitor != 1-2 weeks camp vitor

He was juiced up and didn't have to cut to 185; so he was max strength and had 16x the allowable limit of TRT. Lol at training camp as if Vitor has been one to actually gameplan.
 
Cutting weight to have an advantage against smaller dudes, how dare he do that, damn you Conor. Oh wait, you were talking about Jones, sorry. Fw, lhw, I got confused.
Not a problem admitting that, Conor did cut weight to fight smaller dudes at FW. But Jones' physical advantages over most of the LHWs are insane. He had a foot long reach advantage over Rashad, Machida, Rampage and DC.
 
He was juiced up and didn't have to cut to 185; so he was max strength and had 16x the allowable limit of TRT. Lol at training camp as if Vitor has been one to actually gameplan.

Nope.

His final trt form was against hendo, bisping & rockhold.
 
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