Jones vs Cormier resume

[Lando]

You are literally stating falsehoods lol. Their second fight was a No Contest because Jones failed for steroids. Stop saying he "won".

Secondly, Lance is a POS who lied about his steroid use for years. The only reason he got caught was because it came out that he paid off officials to conceal his failed tests. You aren't even trying to be objective here.

DC was beating the shit out of guys way bigger and way younger than him. The truth about Jones is we don't know how good he was because he cheated.

Label it whatever you want. Jones kicked him in the head and knocked him out.
And once again, a 40 year old athlete like DC outperforming much larger, much younger fighters is a red flag. Wouldn't you say?

At the end of the day I've found the PED epidemic is pointless to argue. It's like arguing about atheism with a Christian, they're not open to logic. Believe whatever you want to, but that video of Jon elbowing DC into unconsciousness isnt going to disappear because it was declared a NC

 

[Plutoburn]

It really comes down to positive drug tests + out of octagon behaviour vs Beaten by Jones decisively twice.

 

[Ilovepizza]

Shogun was champ.


TRT Vitor was scalping people.

jones did not fight against this version of vitor:

 

[Bend NvR Break]

jones did not fight against this version of vitor:

Yes he did. His fight with Jones was right before his 3 HK KO in a row

 

[Ever Watchful]

Wait...if Jones beat DC in their first fight and he was clean why would he need to use to beat DC a second time?

Because it was a competitive fight and he got scared enough by it to take ALL the PEDs.

Or I guess he was so brimming with confidence that he thought he'd PED it up this time and really show ol' Cormier what for.

 

[Ever Watchful]

Yes he did. His fight with Jones was right before his 3 HK KO in a row

Well he did very nearly beat Jones. So there's that too.

 

[george14]

Label it whatever you want. Jones kicked him in the head and knocked him out.
And once again, a 40 year old athlete like DC outperforming much larger, much younger fighters is a red flag. Wouldn't you say?

At the end of the day I've found the PED epidemic is pointless to argue. It's like arguing about atheism with a Christian, they're not open to logic. Believe whatever you want to, but that video of Jon elbowing DC into unconsciousness isnt going to disappear because it was declared a NC

The difference between our argument is I am using evidence (failed tests) and you are using bro-science (outperforming bigger guys). It's just a stupid ass argument. How is that any different than saying Wayne Gretzky was on PEDs because he was better than everyone? There is no evidence for it.

The PED epidemic is not pointless to argue. Users get caught, like Jones, multiple times. Ask yourself, why do guys like Barnett, Jones, Silva, fail multiple times but guys like Bisping, Nate, Cormier, etc. never fail and have been around for so long? Is it possible people beat them? Of course it is. At the end of the day, where there's smoke, there's fire. Jones fans are insecure children who refuse to admit it when they are wrong. The day Daniel Cormier tests positive or is tied up in some scandal with PEDs, I will say the exact same about him.

You are just refusing to admit Jones is a cheater and others guy are clean. Once again, yes, there are guys who have beaten tests. That does not mean everyone is on them though. Some of the worst logic I have ever heard. It's no different than saying "yeah I may be a thief, but everyone steals". No.....everyone does not steal. And if some people do steal, you are the idiot getting caught multiple times.

 

[sapporo ichiban]

Steroids also happened.

People love the whole steroid thing ever since usada showed up, before that nobody seemed as worried about it. It seems like people pick and choose who to be mad at as well. Lets be fair, scratch all the names that have been flagged over the years and then we can debate the notability of the 4 dudes that remain.

 

[sapporo ichiban]

No, he is not the best fighter that has ever lived. He uses his length well and without that, he is not so amazing (check the gus fight) there is a reason why he diets and cuts weight to 205. If he was so confident in his amazing skills, he would have gone for the HW strap much earlier.
And lol, plz do provide evidence of everybody juicing, aside from your baseless speculation. You need to wake up, lol if you think that EVERYONE is still juicing after USADA.

Cutting weight to have an advantage against smaller dudes, how dare he do that, damn you Conor. Oh wait, you were talking about Jones, sorry. Fw, lhw, I got confused.

 

[Ilovepizza]

Yes he did. His fight with Jones was right before his 3 HK KO in a row

Wrong.

This wasnt vitors final form.

 

[markg171]

Jones --> 0 HW fights.

Jon is actually 1-0 at HW. His very first fight occurred at a catchweight of 210.

Jones has been juicing likely his whole career. His resume means nothing.

There has only been semi-serious drug testing in the UFC, not even the sport as a whole, for the last 3 years. We don't even have true serious drug testing still as there are ways to simply not be tested or to reduce your likelihood of being tested, as well as that USADA often doesn't even test many fighters that regularly. It's certainly better than nothing and is working as they do have other things going for them, but to just discount anybody associated with PEDs would be completely moronic given the vast majority of the sport's history falls under non-serious drug testing.

 

[george14]

People love the whole steroid thing ever since usada showed up, before that nobody seemed as worried about it. It seems like people pick and choose who to be mad at as well. Lets be fair, scratch all the names that have been flagged over the years and then we can debate the notability of the 4 dudes that remain.

That's an exaggeration and an apologists view.

The dudes who test positive, get roasted. Here is a list of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Doping_cases_in_mixed_martial_arts

The ones who get defended are either:
A) old and people give them a pass
B) have a legit excuse like a tainted supplement (which is rare)
C) have a strange circumstance like Cro Cop admitting HGH to heal, when he didn't fail

Maybe I'm wrong, but over the course of my time following MMA and on Sherdog, most people are pretty rational when it comes to this stuff. People realize pro sports are riddled with PEDs. People realize guys can beat tests. However, some people stupidly apply the logic that "everyone is on them". I refuse to believe that. Consistency is key here. It's like people claiming Fedor used steroids because PRIDE didn't test, even though he passed at PRIDE 32 while others failed. Yet those same people don't apply the same logic to Rampage or Nick Diaz when they fought in PRIDE. And if everyone in PRIDE roided, it was a level playing field right? The arguments get selective.

 

[MMAProfessional]

I'll hold my judgment until Jones comes back and I see how he looks clean.

 

[DesiredUserName]

So PEDs actually make the playing field more even. They attempt to close the gap on natural, unearned advantages.

Huh? Wha? Ever heard of logic? What happens when those already with "Natural Advantages" starting using too? Hmm? uh? Huh? Too bad there isn't something to close the gap on "natural, unearned" mental advantages, says me. People might then say something that made sense on this forum for a change.

 

[markg171]

PEDs actually make the playing field more even. They attempt to close the gap on natural, unearned advantages.

So back in university I took a drug law course, and for our final project we had to write an essay on one of the current drug laws either on the books or being proposed. This was back when TRT was a thing and they were considering removing it so I did my project on that.

In the paper I outlined how true TRT, which is to bring a person's testosterone levels up to normal for their age group (and not testosterone abuse which is to go over that which is how everybody framed TRT) actually created a more level playing field by putting both fighters at normal levels of testosterone, whereas before one of them would be (presumably) at normal levels and the other low levels and the fighter with normal levels had an advantage. Of course the counter argument was that short of knowing the non-TRT fighters levels you'd have no idea if this actually was fair or not as they could be low too or naturally high, or even taking steroids themselves to go far over natural levels and they might not actually have similar levels. And of course there was the risk that the TRT fighter would just use his access to testosterone injections to go over his limits and get an advantage(a la Bigfoot), or even that the fighter having more testosterone in general, even if it was just to normal levels, could be an advantage as he was used to fighting without those levels.

My professor, who knew nothing about MMA or the sport in general, came back and said that an "advantages" argument against TRT can be countered considering that all athletes have different bodies, different minds, different coaches, different gyms, different nutrition, different lengths of experience, etc. Different testosterone levels are simply one of many differences between the athletes, and that there was never a level playing field in the first place, but at least TRT was attempting to actually put them categorically in one similar field by ensuring they would both be (presumably as you didn't know the non-TRT fighters levels) within normal levels. TRT, regulated by a TUE, actually created a more level playing field whereas you couldn't ensure that everybody had the same level of coaching or limb lengths or whatever.

But that was TRT, which was regulated by a TUE and not simply PEDs which are not. But those saying PEDs are unfair are coming from the mistaken belief that things were fair to begin with. There are a plethora of things that cause advantages and disadvantages to those fighting and different testosterone levels or EPO or whatever don't necessarily mean that fighter had the overall advantage.

 

[Taric]

Jones has 9 championship belts without the 2nd DC fight.
Cormier has 5 championship belts.

 

[Mebetter]

Wrong.

This wasnt vitors final form.

Yes it was Victor had like 16x the allowable limit of trt and it was banned by UsADA after that because of his levels being so high

 

[surrealworlds]

TLDR; If you discount everything cause steroids then none of this matters but JJs body of work is better than DCs in every way. The only argument is Title defenses vs Champ-Champ OR Steroids vs JJ beat him twice.

IMO treat steroids strictly by the rules. JJ got caught and has a NC because of it. Everything else stands.

Let see:
Jon Jones- 24 matches, 22w-1l-1nc
Daniel Cormier - 23 matches, 21w -1l -1nc
So far Jones by a hair

JJ-22 wins =7 cans,1 middleweight name, 7 names,6 former champs, plus DC
DC-21 wins=10 cans,1 former middleweight champ, 6 names, 3 former champs, 1 hw champ
JJ again

JJ:8 title defenses(4 champs,2 monsters,DC, and Chael)
DC: Two Division Champ(Simultaneous), 3 title defenses(2 monsters and Oez)
I give this one to JJ but can see the argument either way.


JJlhw)
5 fights to start(padding)(Brad Bernard, Carlos Eduardo,Anthony Pina, Ryan Verrett,Parker Porter, Moyses Gabin, Andre Gusmao)

Stephen Bonnar(12-4 at time of fight, coming off 2-2 - first big win imo)

Jake O'Brian(Padding),

Matt Hammill-loss for being a cheater,

Brandon Vera(11-4 , had to drop to lhw due to getting beat up at hw, coming off loss to couture- good win)

Vladimir Matyushenko(24-4 , great test for Jones, old veteran- good win)Past Prime?:Yes

Ryan Bader(12-0 -monster- coming off wins over Keith Jardine and lil Nog-great win)Past prime?:No(currently 25-5,Bellator lhw champ)

Mauricio Rua(lhw belt)(19-4, former champ-legend-coming off win over Machida-great win)Past Prime?:Yes(since JJ 6-5 and has dropped L's to most names)

Quintin Jackson(32-8, legend-ufc champ,pride champ-great win)Past Prime?:Yes(since JJ 5-4 with no great wins...maybe Lawal)

Lyoto Machida(17-2, Former Champ-Monster-Enigma- Great win)Past Prime?:No(since JJ 7-5 with some name wins, still KOing fools though)

Rashad Evans(17-1-1, former champ-only loss to Machida)Past Prime?:No(since JJ has gone 2-6, not past prime, just JJ took his soul)
Vitor Belfort(21-9, former champ, legend, coming off win over Anthony Johnson, also...trt)Past Prime?:No(since JJ has gone 5-4-1 with wins over notable names)

Chael Sonnen(28-12-1, middleweight stepping up last minute, Sonnen is a gangster but not a great win for JJ)Past Prime?:no(since JJ has gone 3-2 with name wins)

Alexander Gustafsson(15-1, wins over shogun,Matt Hamill,James Te Huna- great win for Jones)Past Prime?:No

Glover Texeira(22-2, Monster-Chuck lidell protege-Bader,Te Huna,Jackson,etc,-great win)Past Prime?:No

Daniel Cormier(15-0, HW Grand Prix,etc, great win)PP?:No

Ovince St. Preux(19-7,warm up fight-not a great win)PP?:who cares,

Daniel Cormier(No contest due to cheating)

DCHW)
To start 7 "cans"Gary Frazier,John Devine,Lucas Browne,Tony Johnson,Jason Riley,Soa Palelei,Devin Cole)(Browne and Johnson were regional champs so technically the best at that level at that time, Palelei is making some noise now but was a noboday then and still not great)

Jeff Monson(42-11, dangerous journeyman-first test-good win)PP?:No(19-14 since DC)

Antonio Silva(16-2-monster-just beat Fedor-great win)PP?:No

Josh Barnett(31-5-former champ-legend-also steroids)PP?:No(since DC 4-2 with name wins)

Dion Staring(Can)

Frank Mir(16-6, former champ-legend) PP?:yes(since DC has gone 2-5)

Roy Nelson(19-8 with some name wins-good win)PP?:does he have a prime?

(Lhw debut)Patrick Cummins(can)

Dan Henderson(30-11, former champ-champ-legend-great win)PP?:Yes

Jon Jones(loss by decision)

Anthony Johnson(19-4 Monster-great win)

Alexander Gustafsson(16-3 perpetual contender-great win)

Anderson Silva(33-7, champ-legend-middleweight- also steroids-great win...kindof)PP?:Yes

Anthony Johnson(22-5, still a monster)

Jon Jones-(no contest because cheating),

Volkan Oezdemir(can(no name wins but decent record))

Stipe Miocic(18-2, HW Champ-Most Defenses-great win)

 

[ConditFan]

Jones-
Bader
Shogun
Rampage
Machida
Rashad
TrtVitor
Sonnon
Gus
Glover
DC
Osp
Dc

DC-
Bigfoot
Barnett
Mir
Nelson
Hendo
Johnson
Gus
Anderson
Johnson
Volkan
Stipe

Very comparable. If not for the 2 heads-up fights in Jones favor, would probably say DC.

 

[Ilovepizza]

Yes it was Victor had like 16x the allowable limit of trt and it was banned by UsADA after that because of his levels being so high

<{cruzshake}>

final form vitor != 1-2 weeks camp vitor