Jon Lost Under the Unified Rules. But the Fight was in Texas.

[AdamantiumPimmel]

PRIDE rules Jones wins 10/10 judges

 

[Kono dio da!]

Well said TS.

This thread should be bumped to the top of Sherdog regularly untill people start understanding that Texas counts "fighting area control" right next to "effective striking & grappling."

I still need to re-watch it as I'm curious to see if Reyes would've won under the new roolz imo... but I think it becomes much clearer knowing the Texas roolz.

Another fun thought is whether or not Jones was being strategic and personally picked Texas to fight in because he recognized Reyes was going to be skating side to side next to the octogon the whole time.

But how can effective area control win you rounds in which you're being out struck?

 

[WarFan90]

Yup, or Jon himself in a very strategic move knowing he would keep Reyes skating the outside called uncle Dana & requested to fight in Texas.

I completely agree that these different roolz are ridiculous & can be manipulated. They aren't even clearly defined.

Like how much do we compare "fighting area control" to "effective striking?" There'z no dialog on that. They're just placed next to each other for what could be just as easily interpreted as "equal" factors. Obviously damaging strikes should be considered higher right? Well not according to the black n white of teh Texas roolz

I just said the same in another thread that the UFC is big enough to tell people that we just won't bring our circus to your state if you don't roll with the new criteria.

New criteria only put into effect start of 2017 & had to grow a bit. That's only 3 years ago. Maybe they'll all come around.



Yup, to be fair though, the NFL haz been working out their roolz for like a century longer or so yeah? Based off of Rugby & they slowly adjusted to their own rools. Would be interesting to see how the roolz have developed throughout the yearz for them too. Hell 30 years into their evolution was the start of the 19th century, we're now only 30 years into it in 2020!!

Appreciate the time you took to quote and respond to my individual points. I'm of the percentage that thinks jbj is the goat, and that it's not particularly close. That being said, I would not have been upset seeing either of his last 2 called as draws, and while I think he won santos, and I can see how a judge would give last night's bout to the champion. The fact that he has even been challenged by either is a sign of either his decline, or an incredibly risky strategy by him and or his camp to try to coast to tight decisions which doesn't help his legacy in any way. This is the first time I'm genuinely thinking he might be on the downswing.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

But how can effective area control win you rounds in which you're being out struck?

It's right there in black n white that it's an equal criteria. Don't fight in fooking Texas if you don't like it is all I can say. Or don't watch it if you're a fan that doesn't like it.

I agree with you, that it shouldn't... & so do the 2017 new roolz... but try & tell that to the Texas State athletic commission.

In their pov, out maneuvering your opponent has as much value as a certain number of strikes. The question that's not in black n white, which is left up to the interpretation of the judges.... is how many srikes and of what magnitude = a certain time of octogon control.

Obviously Reyes getting a knockdown in round 1 trumped that "area control" parameter but the striking in rounds 2 & 3 were considered not enough by 2 of the 3 judges. Now 1 judge gave 2 & 3 to Jones, but the other 2 flip flopped with one of them giving Reyes 2 & the other giving Reyes 3... so the rool is obviously not a strict science & is up to interpretation. Would be interesting to see some of their "judge coaching" dialog to see how that dynamic is worded & taught to their judges since it's obviously not that well described in the official roolz.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

I can see how a judge would give last night's bout to the champion.

I absolutely despise the idea that a champ goes into a fight with a certain amount of "judge points" in which the competitor actually wins, but they give it to the champ because he didn't win enough by their criteria.

imo... the belt is stripped from the champion the moment he steps into the cage or ring & they are both equal.

The fact that he has even been challenged by either is a sign of either his decline, or an incredibly risky strategy by him and or his camp to try to coast to tight decisions which doesn't help his legacy in any way. This is the first time I'm genuinely thinking he might be on the downswing.

or it's a sign that this new wave of MMA fighters are just as well rounded as bones. John got there first & if you look at his resume, he took out the old guard at just the right time before each of them either retired or got shipped off to Bellator. Don't get me wrong, he fought studs like Bader & had some fresh blood in there that he also beat, but he represented the next evolution. Now he's in with the next generation which is also the next evolution... & so he looks much more human... but he's still winning against them.

iow... Much love to Bones for getting their first, but it's pretty clear that he's now up against a higher level of competition to me. As apposed to what you're referring to as "his decline."

All that said, shout out to Reyes' cardio. I thought for sure he was going to blow his wad, & he did a little bit, but he was hanging till the end.

 

[Only Here for Attachments]

You should include this in a grievance filed against the Texas commission

 

[Dbreiden83080]

So Jon won that fight because there is not a clear criteria in Texas saying which is more important, moving forward or strikes. Everywhere else strikes are more important.

Do you know the numbers? Reyes only landed 12 more strikes in total, throwing nearly 100 more. Reyes also got taken down twice.. This fight was basically a draw..

 

[WarFan90]

If I was able to judge based on the 10 point system I would have the fight as a draw because I belive you should really have to win a round not just edge it out. I would have it 1 Reyes, 2-4 even, 5 jones. Thats why I'm ok with the idea that you have to beat the champ to be the champ, because I think you should have to beat anyone to beat anyone. If we judge by the round and not the fight as a whole, you shouldn't be able to land just a few more strikes (regardless of damage) and steal rounds. This is why I would prefer an out of 100 per round system, you eek out a round you get 55/45 or even 52/48, you get smoked the next round you lose 30/70 or 20/80. This way you're not seeing guys lay off the gas knowing they have zero reward for winning a round "more" convincingly. Even a 10-8 which is crazy rare somehow, is not reward enough for smashing and dominating for 5 minutes when you're competitor can tie it up but slightly winning the next 10. I call bs change the scoring we don't need boxing commissions at this point. Can you imagine how much more entertaining the sport could be with just a scoring change

 

[WarFan90]

If I was able to judge based on the 10 point system I would have the fight as a draw because I belive you should really have to win a round not just edge it out. I would have it 1 Reyes, 2-4 even, 5 jones. Thats why I'm ok with the idea that you have to beat the champ to be the champ, because I think you should have to beat anyone to beat anyone. If we judge by the round and not the fight as a whole, you shouldn't be able to land just a few more strikes (regardless of damage) and steal rounds. This is why I would prefer an out of 100 per round system, you eek out a round you get 55/45 or even 52/48, you get smoked the next round you lose 30/70 or 20/80. This way you're not seeing guys lay off the gas knowing they have zero reward for winning a round "more" convincingly. Even a 10-8 which is crazy rare somehow, is not reward enough for smashing and dominating for 5 minutes when you're competitor can tie it up but slightly winning the next 10. I call bs change the scoring we don't need boxing commissions at this point. Can you imagine how much more entertaining the sport could be with just a scoring change

By regardless of damage I mean without a giant damage difference, if you drop someone and destroy their face but lose in strikes 20-10 did you lose the round

 

[HUGHPHUG]

The UFC started back in 1993. But Tank Abbott wrote a book

 

[Bob Gray]

Which is why I don't pay attention to [Opinions that differ from mine].

Fixed

 

[DivineMind]

Well said TS.

This thread should be bumped to the top of Sherdog regularly untill people start understanding that Texas counts "fighting area control" right next to "effective striking & grappling."

I still need to re-watch it as I'm curious to see if Reyes would've won under the new roolz imo... but I think it becomes much clearer knowing the Texas roolz.

Another fun thought is whether or not Jones was being strategic and personally picked Texas to fight in because he recognized Reyes was going to be skating side to side next to the octogon the whole time.

So thats why Jones chose Houston ?



If so... Color me impressed

 

[Myrddin Wild]

So thats why Jones chose Houston ?



If so... Color me impressed

I wouldn't put it past him. He does brag about how game plan is a huge part of his camps & so why not take it to the next level & manipulate that shit.

I mean he'z teh fooking GOAT... so the UFC will play along. Also, it took the UFC forever to get Jones to be any kind of significant draw despite all the OG's he took out early in his championship run. You think the UFC wants to start over? I'm not saying it's happening, but I do find it within reason that the UFC would play along with Bone's strategy.

 

[IndyCovaHart]

And “Outside of Texas” Reyes was born.

 

[DivineMind]

I wouldn't put it past him. He does brag about how game plan is a huge part of his camps & so why not take it to the next level & manipulate that shit.

I mean he'z teh fooking GOAT... so the UFC will play along. Also, it took the UFC forever to get Jones to be any kind of significant draw despite all the OG's he took out early in his championship run. You think the UFC wants to start over? I'm not saying it's happening, but I do find it within reason that the UFC would play along with Bone's strategy.

Texas Jones is a bad man...

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Texas Jones is a bad man...

"Texas Jones"

​

 

[Arrrrgh]

And “Outside of Texas” Reyes was born.

Definitely not.

Im just pointing out the problem with incosistent scoring criteria on top of bad judges. I agree with the sentiment that the fight should have been a draw.

But not under the unified rules. The unified rules definitely are not perfect... or even good imo. But better then what we used to have.

 

[Katsumi Yamada]

Whatever rules were in effect, two of those judges giving Jones the 2nd round is absurd.

2 of them gave him the 3rd round too. Idk what they were smoking, really.

 

[Arrrrgh]

Do you know the numbers? Reyes only landed 12 more strikes in total, throwing nearly 100 more. Reyes also got taken down twice.. This fight was basically a draw..

It's not scored by total strikes under any criteria. And that would be silly to do as long as there are rounds where fighters can take breaks, be coached, and lose position.

I'm not saying the fight shouldn't be judged as a whole. I think the whole entire scoring system should be revamped. I've made lengthy threads about it in the past advocating for more 10-10's or 9-9's, more draws, etc.

However, under the unified rules nobody had a 10-8 in that fight. And every round had a clear striking/grappling edge. Reyes had that edge in 3 rounds. Under the new unified rules, Reyes should have won. And my point is that we don't have consistent scoring not only from one judge to another but not even in the criteria the judges go by from state to state.

Who do I think won that fight? Draw.
If I'm forced to choose, Reyes--even under the old rules.
As to your point about knowing the numbers, yes I do. And they support my case. Reyes outstruck Jones by 6, 11, and 7 sig strikes per round over the first 3 rounds.

 

[Tylerlikesmma]

who cares anymore? Jon's last exciting striker performance was years back against Glover. Jon just goes out there and uses his unnatural frame to throw pot shots, knee kicks, and the rare committed strike. Anytime someone pushes the pace on him he will literally run away to avoid an exchange, hes done it multiple fights now. Then he runs back to the center of the octagon and repeats the same boring shit for 5 rounds.

he's been generally horrible to watch for a while now. There's been a random (*steroid aterisk*) finish here & there, but Jon's fights are generally pretty awful to watch