Joe Louis and the Blackburn Crouch

[Da_Rev_Ong]

^Both of those guys don't look like anything I want a part of. It's not that they're huge or physically imposing, but their grizzled visage coupled with the postures tell me loud and clear that they know what they're doing and they are willing to do it.

The guy on the left is ready to pop that jab (the distance is really short too) and the guy on the right looks like he's expecting to counter off of it. A little deeper bend in the knees, and it would look like they'd be ready to shoot a takedown.

 

[GalegoREB]

This is just my theory based on what I've seen.

So you never trained in any grappling art ?
BJJ and judo are not natural and if you go to any bjj class you will see seasoned grapplers (brown belts and even black belts) display atrocious wrestling, even though accordingly with your theory that shouldn't happen. In my experience grappling is as complex to learn as any striking art.

 

[Sinister]

Again these sorts of techniques are possibly even MORE useful in MMA than Boxing. Because of how close the old postures were to wrestling postures (John L. Sullivan's trainer was a Wrestler, I think I mentioned that in another thread), and they're based on not being able to use gloves as defense. Which in MMA, is an arbitrary thing to try to do as well because the gloves are so small.

 

[clashnat]

Sorry about the lack of clarity there. What I meant was for the 6-month boxing group to compete against an untrained control group in (boxing)sparring matches, and the wrestling group against an average group untrained in wrestling (in a wrestling format).

Everything was understood perfectly, my last sentence was suggesting exactly that. The way I wrote it though, it appears as if I misunderstood something.

I might go out on a limb here, but my theory is opinions like yours are created purely due to the mainstream presence of the sport of boxing. Roy Jones Jr, Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pacquiao, etc. .... You never saw grapplers have that type of exposure and you'll never see it.

You write "After 1 year, the boxing group (all of them) will look ridiculous with terrible habits, the wrestling group will probably look decent just from practice."

I really think that unconsciously you're using the footage of real pro boxers as a measuring stick.

 

[nvs1985]

Timekeepers name is awesome if he introduced himself James Bond style.

 

[devante]

lol, I already pointed out that Mosley is a special fighter, as was Jones. But both of them spent TONS of time in Gyms due to having Fathers who are trainers. Again, who are you aiming your statements at, Sons of mediocre trainers who are born gifted athletes? (Both Jones and Mosley also played semi-Pro basketball, and other Sports.)

Styles are merely adaptations of sets of basic principals, without the basic principal movements and positions in tact, styles do not exist. I'd expect a trainer to realize that.

My examples don't have exaggerations, I'm not sure your library education taught you the meaning of "exaggerate." I simply stated that someone with a gifted memory and apititude for focused learning could achieve equivalent to a Harvard level education with mere access to a pool of data. That's not an exaggeration.

And no, finding "some other way" is not what A LOT of World Class athletes have done, it's what a few have done compared to the entire pool of world class athletes, and the number of successful fully self-taught athletes is incredibly small. Nothing you've stated has suggested otherwise. So, if you choose to undervalue yourself that's your business, and if you choose to portray that a sufficient goal of a fighter is merely to make some money and be alright, that's cool as well. But I don't see any sense in someone who calls themselves a trainer iterating that their role in the development of an athlete is trivial and unnecessary. I mean, if you honestly feel that way then I see no reason to even train people. Just point them to youtube and wish them the best of luck.



I'm not sure about that, babies hit and punch.

how often do people mistake someone guiding a exceptional talent for being a exceptional coach, i.e. mosley and roy's dad got alot of run for building them. When in fact alot of their shortcomings may have been masked by the fact their kids were exceptional in their ability to learn and execute (mental and phys ability)

also how many times do people discount natural ability when discussing fighters who have done alot w/out top training...w/out alot of training or any at all. I.e. this person is a far above avg athlete or mind; which is why they are able to do so much w/so little instruction or direction or foundation

 

[Zephyros]

Several pressing and closely spaced deadlines/tasks as of late: still could not resist logging on at all.. Thank you for the detailed and insightful post Sinister. Been mulling over these concepts over the last few days. Going over the proper positioning and weight transfer on the jab in my head at the moment it already feels like it was the missing component to what I've been practicing so far. The similarities between more classical boxing stances and fencing are also interesting. I can't quite articulate it because my exposure to the latter has admittedly been very brief, but it's definitely one thing to read about it; quite another to begin to understand and experience it firsthand.


...Also have been adjusting the stance whenever there is no one in the immediate area. This is getting serious..


On another note, I've personally never been one to have too many balance issues (to my knowledge) especially ones in relation to mobility and movement; but when practicing this stance, you can now see how it could become an issue. Punches are much more grounded, but weight distribution and center of gravity are drastically different. Makes more sense why Louis threw his right hands with that looping angle on it though. The leverage is awesome.

 

[Sinister]

I'm not sure exactly how many times, but it does happen and when it happens it's obvious. That's no big mystery. I don't think it's extremely difficult to tell a good trainer from a shitty one, nor to tell when a mediocre or even terrible trainer happens to have an exceptional athlete under their watch.

However, doing a lot without any training AT ALL? Nearly impossible.

 

[Sinister]

Indeed, and yes I've often referred to fencing. Spanish style fencing particularly is very similar to these boxing principals because the need for leverage, balance, and the ability to connect without being connected to are all essential elements.

 

[devante]

I'm not sure exactly how many times, but it does happen and when it happens it's obvious. That's no big mystery. I don't think it's extremely difficult to tell a good trainer from a shitty one, nor to tell when a mediocre or even terrible trainer happens to have an exceptional athlete under their watch.

However, doing a lot without any training AT ALL? Nearly impossible.

if its so easy to see, why do so many people get w/bad trainers; how can a guys team or a guy not see that its the talent not the coaching that brought the fighter to a certain level, sure they may have given them some direction...some tools..etc.

but clearly anyone could have gotten a certain level of success out of said student...but guys still sign on w/less than stellar coaches...not just minor talents..but major talents.

then again you got lots of guys who don't know how to nurture and direct talent AT ALL...and don't get anything out of world class talent. So the work mosley and jones sr did w/their sons has some meaning...some validity.

 

[Lucas Coradini]

Again these sorts of techniques are possibly even MORE useful in MMA than Boxing. Because of how close the old postures were to wrestling postures (John L. Sullivan's trainer was a Wrestler, I think I mentioned that in another thread), and they're based on not being able to use gloves as defense. Which in MMA, is an arbitrary thing to try to do as well because the gloves are so small.

When MMA fighters come to your gym to improve their boxing, you educates them in old school barehanded boxing tatics, or the training is the same you give to people interested only in boxing?

Can you see these methods becoming the trend in boxing training for MMA fighters, or simply there's not enough people qualified to do so these days?


ps.: Sorry if my english sucks

 

[Sinister]

No, it's actually not that clear that "anyone" could have gotten the same level of success. I'm not sure some of you understand how relationships work. Why did Jack Mosley, Roy Jones Sr., and Roger Mayweather maintain the status of their relatives? One word, trust. Shane, Roy Jr., and Roger were each trusted by their fighter. That is, until the relationship between Roy Sr. and Jr. soured (much in the same way between Floyd Sr. and Jr.), and he went to another Father figure, Alton Merkerson.It's not just plain old nurturing, most young athletes first need permission to be themselves, regardless of what that self is. Some trainers are much too controlling for that even if they're higher qualified on paper. The lesser qualified one may give them that very thing without even realizing that's what is being given, then once they have that permission, and a reasonably taxing training regimen, they flourish. Once that happens, then kicks in the old "if it ain't broken, you don't fix it." Once a trainer builds a reputation on a guy, others will come, even ones who don't know that they won't get what they're seeking or why.

 

[Sinister]

I teach them pretty much the same as I teach anyone, because these principals work. However certain emphasis will be made on the defensive aspects for an MMA fighter. I posted this in another thread, but here's the difference between an MMA fighter who studies this sort of Boxing and one who doesn't:

 

[devante]

No, it's actually not that clear that "anyone" could have gotten the same level of success. I'm not sure some of you understand how relationships work. Why did Jack Mosley, Roy Jones Sr., and Roger Mayweather maintain the status of their relatives? One word, trust. Shane, Roy Jr., and Roger were each trusted by their fighter. That is, until the relationship between Roy Sr. and Jr. soured (much in the same way between Floyd Sr. and Jr.), and he went to another Father figure, Alton Merkerson.It's not just plain old nurturing, most young athletes first need permission to be themselves, regardless of what that self is. Some trainers are much too controlling for that even if they're higher qualified on paper. The lesser qualified one may give them that very thing without even realizing that's what is being given, then once they have that permission, and a reasonably taxing training regimen, they flourish. Once that happens, then kicks in the old "if it ain't broken, you don't fix it." Once a trainer builds a reputation on a guy, others will come, even ones who don't know that they won't get what they're seeking or why.

ty for the response

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Great thread. I tried these out in these 2 days and so far I got hit less than I would usually have with a more squared stance. But I have several questions to ask:

1. With the stance, as a southpaw is there anything I should take note/change aside from applying the same general southpaw principals when box?

2. How do you fire the rear hand properly? I kept having the feeling of "reaching over" when i throw it, which often means a very unnerving feeling about being unbalance.

3. Should I be more centered in my weight distribution or more at the rear foot? From what I've read it is rear foot, if I'm correct.

4. With the stance, any adjustment should be make for kickboxing?

Thanks for helping a noob out, great thread.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

So you never trained in any grappling art ?

Wut. I've done both for years, with good results in either

I was using my anecdotes from observing others because I didn't want to just use myself as an example, that might not represent the average person's difficulty with either. I myself definitely had to work harder to improve in the striking (boxing) aspect. I also noticed this in others at the gym. There is not a natural learning curve to boxing like there is from logging hours in grappling, imo. Boxing is a lot harder to analyze, and you can't really stall in boxing like you can when grappling. When someone is grappling, you can feel what you and they are doing. That's why it is possible to grapple blindfolded. You can't do that with boxing.

BJJ and judo are not natural and if you go to any bjj class you will see seasoned grapplers (brown belts and even black belts) display atrocious wrestling, even though accordingly with your theory that shouldn't happen. In my experience grappling is as complex to learn as any striking art.

I can agree with BJJ not being natural. I actually think BJJ trains against one's own natural wrestling instincts. I've also noticed that transplants from the bjj class tend to get stunned and shut down mentally when getting hit (by jabs, during drills), but not wrestlers. I remember was an amateur fighter who kept instinctively starting to flop guard whenever he got jabbed during practice.

Judo I think still is somewhat natural. Every long established wrestling art in every culture has something similar to Judo throws in it, especially Irish elbow & collar and Cornish wrestling, where the main throws are more or less indistinguishable from Judo.

 

[Sinister]

Questions answered in order:

1) No.

2) You definitely shouldn't feel like you're reaching over when firing the rear hand. You may be leaning too far onto the front foot. You should be keeping your weight back when you throw it. Take a look at this photo of Robinson:

It's a little deceiving because if you didn't know any better you'd think he WAS standing in Southpaw position. But he's not, he's demonstrating the right hand. His left thigh appears to be facing to his left because he would externally rotate the lead knee. The right leg appears just slightly inward because there's a slight internal rotation of that knee (when a coach tells you to turn your ankle, really you should turn your hip and only as far as to stabilize the punch, going even an inch further serves no purpose).

The hand is fired from basically, just below the shoulder so that the trunk supports the weight of the punch. Basically, you get hit by that right hand and you get hit in the face with all 160lbs or so of Robinson. The hip rotations are what allow for him to be off-center the whole time he does throw. Hence, it's extremely difficult to hit him back.

3) Rear foot.

4) Not really. Maybe less dramatic knee bends when moving to allow for lighter kicking movements. Most kicking arts that understand principals of balance, and do not depend solely on momentum to provide it have some of these notions in them. I had a client here from the UK who told me the Boxing stuff I showed him was closer to the Karate he learned than the Boxing he was being taught at the MMA Gym he went to in the UK.

 

[Samuel Reynoso]

Good technique is natural. Nothing about fighting is unnatural. Its just that the human learning process involves the use of awkwardness. It doesn't matter what skill you want to learn. Even if you have great talent you should hunt for every little bit of awkward you can feel, or at some point you will plateau.

What's unnatural is learning to fight by fighting people who are way better than you. That's not a good way to train, and it's the training method that's unnatural. Not the activity itself.

 

[Zam Zam]

Why is this thread dying?

I'll tell you what I think...

Every time I read your writings, it causes reflections, analysis and disappointment.

The disappointment comes from the fact that, where I live, there aren't really "good" boxing gyms. Otherwise, I'd be there.

 

[clashnat]

Using the average (we can use avg. 14 year old), I'd say the boxing group would do better after 6 months against the average untrained 14 year old control group,

than the wrestling group would against against it's own untrained control group.

come to think a day later: If boxing is more difficult, then how come the group is going to use it so efficiently after 6 months into training?

Right now I'm thinking your comment either suggests that boxing is easier than wrestling or that wrestling is not effective at all.

Damn, this shit could be used for the logic part in IQ-tests.

 

[adirion]

I'll tell you what I think...

Every time I read your writings, it causes reflections, analysis and disappointment.

The disappointment comes from the fact that, where I live, there aren't really "good" boxing gyms. Otherwise, I'd be there.

Also, it makes one consider switching from muay thai to boxing. Meh, whatever is being discussed is really beyond the reach of most here i'd assume. Well, it's true for me at least, so i'll just lurk here, stfu and take in as much as i can.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

come to think a day later: If boxing is more difficult, then how come the group is going to use it so efficiently after 6 months into training?

Right now I'm thinking your comment either suggests that boxing is easier than wrestling or that wrestling is not effective at all.

Damn, this shit could be used for the logic part in IQ-tests.

Because it's measured by the measure of difference between those who haven't studied it and those who have. The size of the disparity.

The larger disparity in performance between trained and untrained groups would indicate that wrestling (not just offense but defense) is already somewhat inborn as a skill to your average person, while the science of striking/defending strikes is not. Striking correctly requires the understanding of principles that are extremely abstract to a regular person, while wrestling utilizes more intuitive principles.

If this was a logic question in an IQ test, it would likely be listed somewhere in the middle or later on in the test, and not as one of the first warmup questions, as the principle behind it is also somewhat abstract and less immediately evident.

 

[Sinister]

Share the thoughts, though. Its what gives me the incentive to post more of this stuff.

 

[shpboris]

IMO, offensive wrestling (especially freestyle) is extremely unnatural to people. Actually, even some defensive techniques are very unnatural too.

 

[JaKob]

Reading this thread inspired me to go back and watch my favourite sequence of boxing ever captured on film. Louis firing the most beautiful, seamlessly executed 1-2 against Johnny Paycheck. The poise, balance, coordination. It boggles the mind to think how many casual fans think of old timers as being crude.

 

[shpboris]

Good indication of that ^ is the quite rare usage of offensive wrestling in MMA by non wrestlers. Sure, everybody knows how to sprawl, but taking down another guy is a different story.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Hmm Sinister, can you do a series of video breaking down the stance and basic attacks/combinations in this stance? If it is too hassle I guess I could always watch the old footage XD

 

[shpboris]

IMO, learning BASIC boxing is easier than wrestling in case that the beginner guy is mentally strong and not afraid too much of getting hit.

 

[Jaxx]

Hmm Sinister, can you do a series of video breaking down the stance and basic attacks/combinations in this stance? If it is too hassle I guess I could always watch the old footage XD

+1

I'll go one further, Sinister i think you could do a dvd set on boxing.

I think you would get many guys on here buying it and spreading the word.

 

[snizzar]

i will use myself as an example, i have never taken a grappling class a day in my life; i learned by watching guys grapple and grappling alot. I have had people point out certain things to me, adjust what i am doing; but never in my life have i had a coach.


But i can in fact grapple, now am i very good, super technical or top shelf as a grappler; no im not, but am i functionally effective. Yeah...i have rolled alot w/very good wrestlers bjj guys judoka samboist shui jiao guys submission wrestlers etc. I got taken down, thrown, leg locked, heel hooked, armbarred, triangled, rear naked choked, etc. After being completely dominated for months and months and months; eventually i learned how to survive/defend, then improve position, then gain position, then maintain position and eventually submit guys. I didn't tap someone until seven months in; but that was rolling all three times a week against very experienced and skilled guys. An when i say i got handled..i mean handled..tapped out...worn out..beat the fuck up.

i been to multiple mma gyms...judo clubs....grappling clubs...bjj clubs and sambo clubs all over texas, and while noone is saying im great or very good...noone has said i don't know what im doing based off rolling w/me.

i can even point to specific moves i was never taught, just watched and then tried it until it worked... Sitting out, i actually saw bret hart do it in a wrestling match; he used it and i recognized i get in certain situations because of not knowing how to do this move. So i did again and again, in sparring; then i just figured it out and was able to pull it off...

So i have essentially taught myself to grapple...just talked about it alot...read it alot..watched people roll alot and sparred alot..and taught myself how to grapple.
Esp the style of grappling i used..it was all trial and error under duress rolling against competitive much better grapplers.

seriously never had anyone teach me how to grapple..maybe show me a diff way of doing a move here and there; other than that..watching and rolling.

That being said i am never gonna be a world champ..national champ...regional champ...state champ..etc. Im not good enough, i know enough and can perform well enough to be functionally effective..noting more or less... So do you need a trainer to learn, NO; but it depends on how good you want to be and what level your gonna compete at.

I believe you could teach yourself something to be eff in regards to self def, or to be better than other untrained/coached people; but unless your a exceptional physical/mental talent, you won't be high level in re to competition.

also if you have a base/prior teaching/coaching, u can pick up things and learn through trial and error; once again that is only gonna get you so far in regards to who u can be in w/and how well u can do vs them.

i learned how to parry and a baiting/potshot approach by sparring alot of karate/tma type guys; saamag taught me kickboxing/mt, but my approach in his opinion is more tma like as i apply what he showed me based on my prior experiences. The whole concept was based on alot of sparring w/alot of karate types; even though i never have learned karate, alot of people ask me if i have a karate/kung fu b/g because of things i do.

so i agree w/u based on my experience you can learn something from scratch or you can learn a new element/aspect of something through observation..trial and error. It just takes alot of time and patience and will; cus your gonna get smacked and embarrassed quite frequently.. At least i was.

Mmm i can't tell if you're being satirical at times or not lol but either way, I like to believe the most effective training = most efficient training. Meaning, I think your time is better spent having a qualified individual/professor teach you textbook escapes/sweeps from every position and build your overall foundation (which a self taught guy probably isn't doing). More importantly they'll fix what you're doing wrong by outright pointing the error out before you even make it while also dramatically dropping said number of trials by teaching you proper technique in the first place, thus allowing more techniques overall to be learnt. It's one thing to try and get yourself your 10,000 hours whichever way possible, it's another thing to put in 10,000 hours with 70% of it being... "errors".

You say you built a functional grappling game and got your first sub after 7 months, but IMHO had you spent those same 7 months training under a respectable blackbelt, your game would be that much stronger. If you're talented, there's people out there who can get a Renzo Gracie blue belt after a year of dedication (think I heard about good talent + ~5x per week). It's just way too chaotic running on mostly observation with trial/error and no one to really mentor or lead you. I don't think that's exclusive to combat sports either, I think it's applied to all facets of life really.

I can't imagine walking into an electrician company and telling them that I don't have formal training, but I shadowed a buddy of mine who is a licensed electrician for a year, so with some tweaks here and there I can do the job. If anything it's disrespectful. Just my 2 cents though. Man I haven't posted here in so long. The blackhole of procrastination known as sherdog is sucking me back in. :icon_sad:

 

[Strykerx]

Share the thoughts, though. Its what gives me the incentive to post more of this stuff.

Well if that's the case, I'll be posting more. Here are some of my thoughts in regards to this whole thread.

First the photo you posted of Sugar Ray Robinson open up my eyes. I never realize it before but all the photos I've seen of old timers such as Robinson, Louis, and a few others that I had originally thought were posing in the southpaw stance or the photo taken was mirrored, were in fact throwing a cross.

Second, looking at all the fighters posted they all have similar stance and they all are protecting the center line. A common combat theory that isn't stress enough.

Third, this is what the sweet science is about. This stance can be used in anyway style from boxers, pressure fighters, brawlers, counter punchers, etc. This allowed old timers longevity.

 

[clashnat]

The blackhole of procrastination known as sherdog is sucking me back in. :icon_sad:

 

[thugpoet]

+1

I'll go one further, Sinister i think you could do a dvd set on boxing.

I think you would get many guys on here buying it and spreading the word.

I think because sinister pays such attention to the finer details, it would be a huge task for him to undertake.

The money he could make from just the sherdog faithful would be a lot tho

 

[Cap10Kirk]

What an amazing thread. I learned a lot. Thanks to all the contributors. I think I just got addicted to this forum.

 

[Strykerx]

I think because sinister pays such attention to the finer details, it would be a huge task for him to undertake.

The money he could make from just the sherdog faithful would be a lot tho

I disagree with the last part. The sherdog faithful as you call it is few in numbers.

 

[Sinister]

I don't have the patience to make instructional videos. I mean, I can do one or two like the one I did on the lead uppercut, however, to do a whole series is beyond me. I'd rather people just eventually come by this Gym and train if they want to learn the Art. I'd feel the same about any craft, though. If I knew how to fix cars very well, rather than make videos, I'd rather take on apprentices.

 

[Lucas Coradini]

I don't have the patience to make instructional videos.

Oh no!... So my hopes about that video about a untelegraphed lead hook must die now :redface: