Joe Louis and the Blackburn Crouch

[Jukai]

Seriously, it's threads like this that should be archived for all to see. Incredible stuff.

 

[Negative Zero]

Yeah because learning = zero practice #rollseyes

With enough practice and study, you can recreate the Mona Lisa. It's been done. If we are talking about leveraging many many years of practice and craft to recreating something, then I just don't see how anyone can say it absolutely can't be done.

For instance, let's imagine you had months to throw away just tabulating every single aspect of every one of Joe Louis's fights to which there is sufficient quality of footage. I'm talking every reaction he ever had to every punch that was ever thrown his way, every punch he ever threw along with detailed context, why he moved when and against whom... I mean it would take a page of writing just to explain what you would have to document, never mind how much information you would have to end up with. But let's say you do it, organize it impressively for study and reference, and so on.

With this information, along with years of study and practice, proper training, and further information and training from whoever survives that would know some of this stuff and assist with you for the right price--I absolutely think it could be done.

So what are we talking about here? The situation outlined above which requires grueling intensive study and practice for many years, or the situation I think everyone is assuming is at hand, which is one in which someone just watches Joe Louis fights and trains in his spare time and somehow recreates a complex system of fighting all by himself.

I would liken it to if you wanted to learn how to be a doctor but all you could do is follow a doctor around for months, watching and documenting literally everything he says and does without asking him any questions, then trying to gain his knowledge by studying what you wrote down. If you studied it for years you would probably learn a lot, but you'd learn more in that time if you just got your own PHD and became your own unique doctor.

No offense meant by anything I've said. Just explaining my opinion.

 

[DiPoet]

Had to say this stance is great. Everything improved with it. My balance, speed, power and even stamina. My shoulders get less tired b/c my torso carries everything with my back straight. And it takes less energy to move my body around b/c my torso is positioned properly.

I used this stance in Muay Thai class, with padwork, and some body-sparring. The results were great.

 

[a guy]

With enough practice and study, you can recreate the Mona Lisa. It's been done. If we are talking about leveraging many many years of practice and craft to recreating something, then I just don't see how anyone can say it absolutely can't be done.

For instance, let's imagine you had months to throw away just tabulating every single aspect of every one of Joe Louis's fights to which there is sufficient quality of footage. I'm talking every reaction he ever had to every punch that was ever thrown his way, every punch he ever threw along with detailed context, why he moved when and against whom... I mean it would take a page of writing just to explain what you would have to document, never mind how much information you would have to end up with. But let's say you do it, organize it impressively for study and reference, and so on.

With this information, along with years of study and practice, proper training, and further information and training from whoever survives that would know some of this stuff and assist with you for the right price--I absolutely think it could be done.

So what are we talking about here? The situation outlined above which requires grueling intensive study and practice for many years, or the situation I think everyone is assuming is at hand, which is one in which someone just watches Joe Louis fights and trains in his spare time and somehow recreates a complex system of fighting all by himself.

I would liken it to if you wanted to learn how to be a doctor but all you could do is follow a doctor around for months, watching and documenting literally everything he says and does without asking him any questions, then trying to gain his knowledge by studying what you wrote down. If you studied it for years you would probably learn a lot, but you'd learn more in that time if you just got your own PHD and became your own unique doctor.

No offense meant by anything I've said. Just explaining my opinion.

And it really can't be overstated that there's a physical component to this. You don't just need to understand these things, you need to teach yourself (or others) the physical skills to actually do them. Then, as Luis said, when you mess up you get punched in the face. You get hurt.

The question was posed about guys who create their own styles originally. Well, most of them were already well-schooled for decades and still had to do years worth of trial and error. Sure it's technically possible for someone to recreate that purely based off observation, it's just that 99.999999% of people who try will get nowhere.

 

[Sinister]

Sinister can you break down Jose Napoles stance it seems very similar to Joe Louis stance in the photo? I recall you mentioning that's how one should fight off the front foot. His stance seems like his weight is either more on the back foot or evenly distributed. Plus Napoles guard throws me off at times.

Jose's stance always began textbook, good knee rotation, straight back, shoulders relaxed, chin down, chest up, and the bend at the hip (and slight bend of the knees):

But what ended up happening when he fought was that he let his head float over that front foot. A lot of Cubans did this habitually, likely to bait their opponents to attack where they'd then use pull-back counters:

 

[devante]

I don't see a lot of disagreement here. Disagreement on phrasing or emphasis, but really everyone seems to acknowledge that you can't learn a style unless you have coaching and practice from someone familiar and knowledgeable of that style.

Otherwise the best you can do is be lucky to pick up bits and pieces of what they are doing by watching them (still worth something, imo), but not fit them together efficiently enough to be able to personally recognize, let alone execute the components together within the strategy, movement, timing, etc. which = their style.

bingo

 

[Discipulus]

Something about this stance is killing my shin splints recently. I got them from skipping rope (too fat to be habitually jumping up and down), and the back-foot heavy, hips-curled stance keeps your rear calf and hamstring constantly loaded. Tight calves are not fun for shin splints.

Anything I can do to avoid this, or does it just take some getting used to and a lot of good stretching?

 

[Steve08]

He would. Sinister is a STRICT "hands up" coach

If that's true, then that doesn't make sense to me, because I've seen him post stuff which led me to believe the exact opposite of that -- but perhaps I misinterpreted that.

More specifically, though, he made a comment about people holding their hands high looking like they were SCARED, not ready to fight. That made a lot of sense to me.

 

[Sinister]

There are exercises you could do, yes. Theres a lot of things that can effect this. I'll PM you for more details tomorrow if I can.

 

[Sinister]

With enough practice and study, you can recreate the Mona Lisa. It's been done. If we are talking about leveraging many many years of practice and craft to recreating something, then I just don't see how anyone can say it absolutely can't be done.

For instance, let's imagine you had months to throw away just tabulating every single aspect of every one of Joe Louis's fights to which there is sufficient quality of footage. I'm talking every reaction he ever had to every punch that was ever thrown his way, every punch he ever threw along with detailed context, why he moved when and against whom... I mean it would take a page of writing just to explain what you would have to document, never mind how much information you would have to end up with. But let's say you do it, organize it impressively for study and reference, and so on.

With this information, along with years of study and practice, proper training, and further information and training from whoever survives that would know some of this stuff and assist with you for the right price--I absolutely think it could be done.

So what are we talking about here? The situation outlined above which requires grueling intensive study and practice for many years, or the situation I think everyone is assuming is at hand, which is one in which someone just watches Joe Louis fights and trains in his spare time and somehow recreates a complex system of fighting all by himself.

I would liken it to if you wanted to learn how to be a doctor but all you could do is follow a doctor around for months, watching and documenting literally everything he says and does without asking him any questions, then trying to gain his knowledge by studying what you wrote down. If you studied it for years you would probably learn a lot, but you'd learn more in that time if you just got your own PHD and became your own unique doctor.

No offense meant by anything I've said. Just explaining my opinion.

Let's be clear, though. We weren't talking about following a Doctor around. That would be what an internship is. We were discussing watching a Doctor perform complicated surgeries on youtube, then recreating exactly his method of surgeries.

 

[Discipulus]

Great, thanks. I appreciate it, as always.

 

[thugpoet]

Let's be clear, though. We weren't talking about following a Doctor around. That would be what an internship is. We were discussing watching a Doctor perform complicated surgeries on youtube, then recreating exactly his method of surgeries.

Boxing = surgery? ?

Listen I never stated you can learn without application. Without trial and error, it takes time, and a coach will spend things up, but it's really not that complicated to see a jab, it's a little harder to see why he threw a jab in a instance, but once you start drawing conclusions and testing them out, your film study plus getting yout ass kick will eventually yield a system that will look like what you are trying to accomplish.

The real question is why would you want to spend your life trying to be someone else.

Boxing like any other art is all about self expression, if your trying to be Mayweather how can you be the best kevin?

 

[Eric Bradach]

I've always thought that the way boxers are brought up in the amateures and how its scored now a days has had a huge effect on how they fight when they turn pro. With keeping the hands up because of the large gloves, combination punching because its scored by how many clean punches have landed. The modern amateur scene has had a huge impact on boxing today, I'm I wrong about this?

 

[Negative Zero]

Boxing = surgery? ?

Listen I never stated you can learn without application. Without trial and error, it takes time, and a coach will spend things up, but it's really not that complicated to see a jab, it's a little harder to see why he threw a jab in a instance, but once you start drawing conclusions and testing them out, your film study plus getting yout ass kick will eventually yield a system that will look like what you are trying to accomplish.

The real question is why would you want to spend your life trying to be someone else.

Boxing like any other art is all about self expression, if your trying to be Mayweather how can you be the best kevin?

Yeah this is important.

 

[Zephyros]

This thread finally compelled me to post. These types of discussions are excellent. How are the mechanics of jabbing different in this stance? More specifically, I'm referring to the alignment of the left arm in relation to the left shoulder, rear shoulder and rear leg to the target, and where the head should be placed (which affects balance) during the movement. If this stance has a lot of the body weight shifted onto the right hip, does it have to remain the same throughout? Looking at the tape, when Joe Louis throws that step-in jab, he seems to just throw it how one normally would, with the weight more centered. Or does he do this with the intention of shifting the positioning of his head?

 

[DoctorTaco]

If that's true, then that doesn't make sense to me, because I've seen him post stuff which led me to believe the exact opposite of that -- but perhaps I misinterpreted that.

More specifically, though, he made a comment about people holding their hands high looking like they were SCARED, not ready to fight. That made a lot of sense to me.

I was just busting in his balls a bit

 

[GotNoClue]

I read all of these threads religiously.

The things I have picked up from some of these threads and some of the posters on here has helped improve my skill set tremendously.

Great work.

 

[Sinister]

Boxing = surgery? ?

Listen I never stated you can learn without application. Without trial and error, it takes time, and a coach will spend things up, but it's really not that complicated to see a jab, it's a little harder to see why he threw a jab in a instance, but once you start drawing conclusions and testing them out, your film study plus getting yout ass kick will eventually yield a system that will look like what you are trying to accomplish.

The real question is why would you want to spend your life trying to be someone else.

Boxing like any other art is all about self expression, if your trying to be Mayweather how can you be the best kevin?

Boxing is a craft, and like any other craft requires education save for a very small percent of the population. Again, you are insinuating a level of lucidity that just plain doesn't exist in most people. Can a person go to a public library and read until they have the equivalent of a Harvard education? Sure. But who is honestly doing that? And even if someone did, it would be someone with incredible gifts of memory and focus. Thus, to suggest it as a sound means of accomplishing something is slightly irresponsible, and undermines the role of instructors. Earlier you literally said "you don't need a trainer to learn"...the question is who are you actually talking to?

For MOST people, film study + getting their ass kicked repeatedly will yield the need for surgery...of the brain.

 

[thewhiteSRR]

Seriously, it's threads like this that should be archived for all to see. Incredible stuff.

x2 on that. I just got some knowledge dropped on me.

 

[thugpoet]

Boxing is a craft, and like any other craft requires education save for a very small percent of the population. Again, you are insinuating a level of lucidity that just plain doesn't exist in most people. Can a person go to a public library and read until they have the equivalent of a Harvard education? Sure. But who is honestly doing that? Thus, to suggest it as a sound means of accomplishing something is slightly irresponsible, and undermines the role of instructors. Earlier you literally said "you don't need a trainer to learn"...the question is who are you actually talking to?

For MOST people, film study + getting their ass kicked repeatedly will yield the need for surgery...of the brain.

You don't need a trainer to learn, otherwise styles wouldn’t exist in the first place.

Trainers helps no doubt but need is a strong word and you don't need a trainer. Honestly how much did Shane mosleys dad or Roy Jones dad really help?

Lastly your examples are filled with over exaggerations, to make a decent living you don't need a Harvard level education. And you can go to the library and teach yourself a skill, how I learned marketing and investing, am I world class in ether? Nope but I've leveraged that knowledge to make some decent money.

If you want to learn go find a trainer, if you don't have a means then find another way, that's what alot of world class athletes have done.

Saying that anyone needs a trainer to be successful is over valuing the value of a coach, or in my case over valuing my value ( as a coach)

 

[Sinister]

This thread finally compelled me to post. These types of discussions are excellent. How are the mechanics of jabbing different in this stance? More specifically, I'm referring to the alignment of the left arm in relation to the left shoulder, rear shoulder and rear leg to the target, and where the head should be placed (which affects balance) during the movement. If this stance has a lot of the body weight shifted onto the right hip, does it have to remain the same throughout? Looking at the tape, when Joe Louis throws that step-in jab, he seems to just throw it how one normally would, with the weight more centered. Or does he do this with the intention of shifting the positioning of his head?

The weight can shift from foot to foot, what's important is that the hips are activated when doing so. Right hip, to left hip, then back to right again. Doing this correctly will move the head side to side without having to actually move the head.

 

[devante]

You don't need a trainer to learn, otherwise styles wouldn’t exist in the first place.

Trainers helps no doubt but need is a strong word and you don't need a trainer. Honestly how much did Shane mosleys dad or Roy Jones dad really help?

Lastly your examples are filled with over exaggerations, to make a decent living you don't need a Harvard level education. And you can go to the library and teach yourself a skill, how I learned marketing and investing, am I world class in ether? Nope but I've leveraged that knowledge to make some decent money.

If you want to learn go find a trainer, if you don't have a means then find another way, that's what alot of world class athletes have done.

Saying that anyone needs a trainer to be successful is over valuing the value of a coach, or in my case over valuing my value ( as a coach)

i will use myself as an example, i have never taken a grappling class a day in my life; i learned by watching guys grapple and grappling alot. I have had people point out certain things to me, adjust what i am doing; but never in my life have i had a coach.


But i can in fact grapple, now am i very good, super technical or top shelf as a grappler; no im not, but am i functionally effective. Yeah...i have rolled alot w/very good wrestlers bjj guys judoka samboist shui jiao guys submission wrestlers etc. I got taken down, thrown, leg locked, heel hooked, armbarred, triangled, rear naked choked, etc. After being completely dominated for months and months and months; eventually i learned how to survive/defend, then improve position, then gain position, then maintain position and eventually submit guys. I didn't tap someone until seven months in; but that was rolling all three times a week against very experienced and skilled guys. An when i say i got handled..i mean handled..tapped out...worn out..beat the fuck up.

i been to multiple mma gyms...judo clubs....grappling clubs...bjj clubs and sambo clubs all over texas, and while noone is saying im great or very good...noone has said i don't know what im doing based off rolling w/me.

i can even point to specific moves i was never taught, just watched and then tried it until it worked... Sitting out, i actually saw bret hart do it in a wrestling match; he used it and i recognized i get in certain situations because of not knowing how to do this move. So i did again and again, in sparring; then i just figured it out and was able to pull it off...

So i have essentially taught myself to grapple...just talked about it alot...read it alot..watched people roll alot and sparred alot..and taught myself how to grapple.
Esp the style of grappling i used..it was all trial and error under duress rolling against competitive much better grapplers.

seriously never had anyone teach me how to grapple..maybe show me a diff way of doing a move here and there; other than that..watching and rolling.

That being said i am never gonna be a world champ..national champ...regional champ...state champ..etc. Im not good enough, i know enough and can perform well enough to be functionally effective..noting more or less... So do you need a trainer to learn, NO; but it depends on how good you want to be and what level your gonna compete at.

I believe you could teach yourself something to be eff in regards to self def, or to be better than other untrained/coached people; but unless your a exceptional physical/mental talent, you won't be high level in re to competition.

also if you have a base/prior teaching/coaching, u can pick up things and learn through trial and error; once again that is only gonna get you so far in regards to who u can be in w/and how well u can do vs them.

i learned how to parry and a baiting/potshot approach by sparring alot of karate/tma type guys; saamag taught me kickboxing/mt, but my approach in his opinion is more tma like as i apply what he showed me based on my prior experiences. The whole concept was based on alot of sparring w/alot of karate types; even though i never have learned karate, alot of people ask me if i have a karate/kung fu b/g because of things i do.

so i agree w/u based on my experience you can learn something from scratch or you can learn a new element/aspect of something through observation..trial and error. It just takes alot of time and patience and will; cus your gonna get smacked and embarrassed quite frequently.. At least i was.

 

[Zephyros]

If shifting or distributing our weight on the right (rear) hip can be described as tension, when shifting it onto the left hip, because of the nature of a asymmetrical stance, it feels as though the tension is felt in the upper inner left thigh/pelvis, while the head seems to naturally shift over and slightly forward to the left. Can the 'test' of putting a few fingers around the hip to see if its folding around apply to the left hip as well? Or are there any other such methods to see if we're actually distributing the weight correctly? Jabbing when my weight is shifted like this does indeed feel much more grounded and powerful, at the expense of some mobility and speed (which seems congruent with what's been discussed in this thread so far)


I may be mistaken in this, but when shifting onto the left hip, it seems to square up the hips as well. I tried looking for this shift in the tapes, particularly when Louis is jabbing and not throwing something like left hooks before I realized: He tends to have that lean to the right regardless of where his weight is.


So when Louis has his mass 'disconnected' from his rear hip (Or shifted elsewhere), is this shifting being used to set up his 'true' power shots (or defensive movements), the sort of transitions that you mention earlier?

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

I find grappling a lot more intuitive than striking. Grappling is natural to mammals. Striking is not. That's one of the biggest reasons striking is so hard for most people to do well

 

[Discipulus]

This has nothing to do with Joe Louis' stance, but I figured the boxing fans will be reading this thread closely, so I'll share.

I had the power turned off at my old apartment today. The meter guy must have seen the little Ringside boxing glove keychain hanging from my car's rearview mirror, and asked if I was into boxing. When I said yes, he told me that he'd been boxing since he was nine, and he went to the Queen City club downtown. He asked if I knew good old-school boxers and I said yes, pretty well. He said, "You know Earnie Shavers?" I told him I did, and he said "That's my uncle."

So I met the alleged nephew of one of boxing's heaviest-handed hitters today. Thought that was kind of neat.

 

[Sinister]

You don't need a trainer to learn, otherwise styles wouldn’t exist in the first place.

Trainers helps no doubt but need is a strong word and you don't need a trainer. Honestly how much did Shane mosleys dad or Roy Jones dad really help?

Lastly your examples are filled with over exaggerations, to make a decent living you don't need a Harvard level education. And you can go to the library and teach yourself a skill, how I learned marketing and investing, am I world class in ether? Nope but I've leveraged that knowledge to make some decent money.

If you want to learn go find a trainer, if you don't have a means then find another way, that's what alot of world class athletes have done.

Saying that anyone needs a trainer to be successful is over valuing the value of a coach, or in my case over valuing my value ( as a coach)

lol, I already pointed out that Mosley is a special fighter, as was Jones. But both of them spent TONS of time in Gyms due to having Fathers who are trainers. Again, who are you aiming your statements at, Sons of mediocre trainers who are born gifted athletes? (Both Jones and Mosley also played semi-Pro basketball, and other Sports.)

Styles are merely adaptations of sets of basic principals, without the basic principal movements and positions in tact, styles do not exist. I'd expect a trainer to realize that.

My examples don't have exaggerations, I'm not sure your library education taught you the meaning of "exaggerate." I simply stated that someone with a gifted memory and apititude for focused learning could achieve equivalent to a Harvard level education with mere access to a pool of data. That's not an exaggeration.

And no, finding "some other way" is not what A LOT of World Class athletes have done, it's what a few have done compared to the entire pool of world class athletes, and the number of successful fully self-taught athletes is incredibly small. Nothing you've stated has suggested otherwise. So, if you choose to undervalue yourself that's your business, and if you choose to portray that a sufficient goal of a fighter is merely to make some money and be alright, that's cool as well. But I don't see any sense in someone who calls themselves a trainer iterating that their role in the development of an athlete is trivial and unnecessary. I mean, if you honestly feel that way then I see no reason to even train people. Just point them to youtube and wish them the best of luck.

I find grappling a lot more intuitive than striking. Grappling is natural to mammals. Striking is not. That's one of the biggest reasons striking is so hard for most people to do well

I'm not sure about that, babies hit and punch.

 

[Sinister]

If shifting or distributing our weight on the right (rear) hip can be described as tension, when shifting it onto the left hip, because of the nature of a asymmetrical stance, it feels as though the tension is felt in the upper inner left thigh/pelvis, while the head seems to naturally shift over and slightly forward to the left. Can the 'test' of putting a few fingers around the hip to see if its folding around apply to the left hip as well? Or are there any other such methods to see if we're actually distributing the weight correctly? Jabbing when my weight is shifted like this does indeed feel much more grounded and powerful, at the expense of some mobility and speed (which seems congruent with what's been discussed in this thread so far)


I may be mistaken in this, but when shifting onto the left hip, it seems to square up the hips as well. I tried looking for this shift in the tapes, particularly when Louis is jabbing and not throwing something like left hooks before I realized: He tends to have that lean to the right regardless of where his weight is.


So when Louis has his mass 'disconnected' from his rear hip (Or shifted elsewhere), is this shifting being used to set up his 'true' power shots (or defensive movements), the sort of transitions that you mention earlier?

Man your questions sure could leave a guy cross-eyed.

But yes, my partner Dadi often has people place one finger on the hip joint when teaching them how to shift their weight properly. If you can feel the joint move around the finger, then it's moving the right way. And as you noted, the head will shift accordingly to being closer to the front foot. Other stuff happens as well, like the rear shoulder coming closer to the lead knee, etc.

However, for the jab, I neglected to mention the weight stays back on the right hip. It would only shift if you step forward, and only for enough time to press against the front toe to get the weight back to the rear foot to load a power punch. A proper HARD jab is done via bending the knee (with both knees slightly externally rotated). A slight bend would both shift the weight forward slightly, and allow for a defensive drop in elevation. Body goes down, hand goes up. This photo is good to demonstrate the beginning position, the fighter on the left specifically:

All he has to do to fire a hard jab is a slight dip and raise his hand up. With his posture correct, all his weight will be there. Doesn't matter what the other guy does. If you ever see someone standing like that, don't attack.

In this photo of former bare knuckle Champion Tom Hyer, imagine if his knees bend as they are, both knees slightly externally rotated, and he stuck that long left arm up in your face. It would absolutely suck to have to defend against that:

The answer to your final question is an absolute YES. This is the beauty of true boxing principals. But it happens by default. The weight shift from hip to hip always loads the next punch. So just by happen-stance of how he was taught to move, no punch is ever soft simply because he didn't throw it right. If it was soft that was actually more reason to worry, because it meant the power shot was already loaded.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

I'm not sure about that, babies hit and punch.

Without being trained, adults hit and punch very similar to the way babies do.


The desire is there with striking, but the form is not. I just think good wrestling is much more natural and ingrained by birth to humans than with striking.

 

[Sinister]

This has nothing to do with Joe Louis' stance, but I figured the boxing fans will be reading this thread closely, so I'll share.

I had the power turned off at my old apartment today. The meter guy must have seen the little Ringside boxing glove keychain hanging from my car's rearview mirror, and asked if I was into boxing. When I said yes, he told me that he'd been boxing since he was nine, and he went to the Queen City club downtown. He asked if I knew good old-school boxers and I said yes, pretty well. He said, "You know Earnie Shavers?" I told him I did, and he said "That's my uncle."

So I met the alleged nephew of one of boxing's heaviest-handed hitters today. Thought that was kind of neat.

Here's me with his Uncle:

 

[clashnat]

The desire is there with striking, but the form is not. I just think good wrestling is much more natural and ingrained by birth to humans than with striking.

No I don't agree with that. Some people who take up boxing pick it up right away (or certain aspects of boxing), others need much more time. It's the same with grappling.

Especially people who've practiced boxing / kickboxing for a long time and then get into grappling, will have a difficult time to switch channels.

 

[RightHandLead]

do you know whos in that photo or where its from?

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

No I don't agree with that. Some people who take up boxing pick it up right away (or certain aspects of boxing), others need much more time. It's the same with grappling.

Especially people who've practiced boxing / kickboxing for a long time and then get into grappling, will have a difficult time to switch channels.

So you think they take exactly equal amounts of time for the average person to learn? Does every possible skill in your opinion take exactly the same amount of time on average for proficiency? I'm going to guess not, even in your opinion.

Wrestling is the most primitive martial art. It is the most primal and therefore ingrained. That's why I think it feels more natural to people starting out.

I myself don't know anyone who just picks up boxing right away. It takes years to iron out the bad habits and craft new (unnatural) ones, because proper boxing does not feel natural (because it isn't) even to the talented pros until they have painstakingly and carefully repeated it endlessly. whereas with wrestling that is not the case.

Some one's beginner boxing might LOOK okay to someone who doesn't know what's right or wrong, but it's always full of holes and undeveloped basics. Just like Lady Gaga's piano performances might SOUND flawless to someone who doesn't play piano, so they don't know (or care) what to listen for.

 

[Sinister]

Unfortunately no. I just did a search and grabbed the first pic where a guy had his legs and upper-body posture right. And it's more common in the bare knuckle photos, so that's what I searched for.

 

[clashnat]

I myself don't know anyone who just picks up boxing right away. It takes years to iron out the bad habits and craft new (unnatural) ones, because proper boxing does not feel natural (because it isn't) even to the talented pros until they have painstakingly and carefully repeated it endlessly. whereas with wrestling that is not the case.

I wasn't thinking mastering boxing completely. Here's an example: Let's take a group of 14 y. old boys who enter a boxing gym .....6 months into training (with all of them having the same coach and all of them showing up to each session) - do you think all of them are going to be at the same level? Or isn't it likely that some of them will be further away than others?

I suggest it's the same with grappling.

 

[fightingrabbit]

do you know whos in that photo or where its from?

I was wondering that too. That is a badass picture. Dude on the right is ready to james toney dip and come over with a big right over the jab.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

I wasn't thinking mastering boxing completely. Here's an example: Let's take a group of 14 y. old boys who enter a boxing gym .....6 months into training (with all of them having the same coach and all of them showing up to each session) - do you think all of them are going to be at the same level? Or isn't it likely that some of them will be further away than others?

I suggest it's the same with grappling.

I can't qualify the different arbitrary levels of a random small group, that's why I used average (average human).

----

Using the average (we can use avg. 14 year old), I'd say the boxing group would do better after 6 months against the average untrained 14 year old control group,

than the wrestling group would against against it's own untrained control group.

But--

That's because your regular untrained person is already more instinctively able in wrestling as compared to boxing. Boxing feels weird even to those with talent. Wrestling does not. Boxing is more counter-intuitive in general

----

Also one more test-- how about none of the kids get training? They just try to learn it on their own by competing against each other. Then we get to see how intuitive each art is to a human being on average.

After 1 year, the boxing group (all of them) will look ridiculous with terrible habits, the wrestling group will probably look decent just from practice. That's because boxing proficiency is nearly impossible to learn without being taught, while wrestling proficiency is not (because it's already instinctive, even to bears and lion cubs).


You don't have to agree, that's perfectly fine.

 

[Bryan Popejoy]

great thread

 

[clashnat]

Also one more test-- how about none of the kids get training? They just try to learn it on their own by competing against each other. Then we get to see how intuitive each art is to a human being on average.

After 1 year, the boxing group (all of them) will look ridiculous with terrible habits, the wrestling group will probably look decent just from practice. That's because boxing proficiency is nearly impossible to learn without being taught, while wrestling proficiency is not (because it's already instinctive, even to bears and lion cubs).

regarding boxing: I don't have high hopes that those kids could learn a lot about balance, weight distribution and positioning themselves.

regarding wrestling: There are always high school kids who excell at wrestling in normal PE class for months. Then they try their luck at the actual high school wrestling team and find out they're not as good, because it is a sport that has to be taught. If boxing was practiced in high schools, the same thing would happen.

So that should also address your comment "the boxing group would do better after 6 months against the average untrained 14 year old control group, than the wrestling group would against against it's own untrained control group."


I don't think the untrained guys could defend a double leg takedown well, and I don't think they defend vs. punches well either. They'd probably turn away from the punches.

 

[zuffa zack**]

I got this!

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

regarding boxing: I don't have high hopes that those kids could learn a lot about balance, weight distribution and positioning themselves.

regarding wrestling: There are always high school kids who excell at wrestling in normal PE class for months. Then they try their luck at the actual high school wrestling team and find out they're not as good, because it is a sport that has to be taught. If boxing was practiced in high schools, the same thing would happen.

So that should also address your comment "the boxing group would do better after 6 months against the average untrained 14 year old control group, than the wrestling group would against against it's own untrained control group."


I don't think the untrained guys could defend a double leg takedown well, and I don't they could take a punch well either. They'd probably turn away from the punches.

Sorry about the lack of clarity there. What I meant was for the 6-month boxing group to compete against an untrained control group in (boxing)sparring matches, and the wrestling group against an average group untrained in wrestling (in a wrestling format).

I might be wrong but from what I've seen, beginning boxers tend to uniformly embarrass the untrained in sparring (in a very noticeable way), relatively moreso than beginning wrestlers against non-wrestlers. Just from what I've seen, non-wrestlers already know how to stall wrestlers who aren't unusually skilled, bigger or stronger than them. My whole thesis is that boxing is full of counter-intuitive body positions, movements, etc. which are not naturally known to a person (and therefore more difficult to learn/grasp/understand the mechanisms of), whereas wrestling is naturally intuitive, and intuitively learned much better than boxing by MERE observing and participating.

If some is getting the better of you in boxing sparring, just by doing one thing to you over and over, you often have no idea how it happened or even what it was, or how to stop it. Even at half speed.It keeps happening and you need someone to fill you in as to what is going on, and what to change. You can even watch yourself on tape and still wonder what and how it happened.

In wrestling you can tell what is going on merely by the feel and look of things. You may not be practiced or strong enough to stop it, but you can still understand what is taking place. Wrestling utilizes strength and conditioning to win (even at intermediate levels) a lot more than boxing does.

This is just my theory based on what I've seen.