Jiu Jitsu's unwritten rule of not using strength must change.

I just thought of another aspect of this whole debate people ignore or forget. The majority of the people who do bjj especially the hobbyists who are from a suburban/white collar/hypster background and most of the time work desk jobs/management positions.. which makes sense. That demographic has the money and free time to pay for and do bjj. A significant portion also comes from people who both never worked blue collar jobs that get you strong, nor did they do athletics. Also, the people who are most frequently "critisicized" for using too much strength 90% of the time are.. Wrestlers and white belts coming in from a blue collar job that gets you strong (masonry, construction, bailing hay, etc). In fact you can see a lot of people don't understand how strong it can make you because on another thread a significant amount of people were trying to say "old man strength" doesn't exist


My point being, it's not just a nerd vs jock/bjj vs wrestling thing (which it is some of the time, it's pointless to deny). It also comes from the fact a lot of bjj hobbyists are coming from a desk job and don't understand physicality at first or what used to be the baseline strength level of the average population before the digital age

Wow, nice generalization and plenty of speculation too. lol

So, the "honorable" blue collar v. the "hipster" white collar. That's really what this crap thread is about.

There are some redneck, wussy hicks who are blue collar. And there are some TOUGH dudes who are white collar too.

"coming from a desk job and don't understand physicality".... wow, gtfo with that bs
 
Wow, nice generalization and plenty of speculation too. lol

So, the "honorable" blue collar v. the "hipster" white collar. That's really what this crap thread is about.

There are some redneck, wussy hicks who are blue collar. And there are some TOUGH dudes who are white collar too.

"coming from a desk job and don't understand physicality".... wow, gtfo with that bs
Did I say the word "honorable" once...ever... so stop putting fucking words in my mouth.. I never said it was better to be blue collar or it was more noble.. I said, some blue collar jobs made you strong as hell and a LOT more people used to do them.. which are facts not generalizations.
What I said isn't actually about anything. It's about exactly what I said, because general trends of society one can point to of they aren't being politically correct to try to get social approval/laid. I never mentioned country or rednecks.. and that wasn't what I was talking about. Considering that I said, it's more a reflection of ALL of society moving into the digital age. I meant exactly what the fuck I said. It's a FACTOR in the whole debate. Same way that other things like trying to keep white belts from spazzing is a part of it.

I don't believe bjj guys are all pussies, and the TLDR version of all this is..
That's not what I meant or said..so stop putting fucking words in my mouth
 
Yes, this is so not the problem most of the time.

These idiots who are always spazzing out, injure you and then "whoa man sorry". WTF did you think was going to happen when you swung your elbow at my face? If you were sorry you'd stop doing it.

Most people need to learn how to relax and many of these "high level" guys get a rude awakening as they get older.

They find out they never had much skill to begin with, they were just stronger, faster and have better cardio than most people. Once those attributes fade it's over.

If you want athletic competition why not just do crossfit. Wrestlers have their thing but seem to lack any finesse for the most part. It's just raaaaaaaargh.

I have more respect for old judo master who beats you without apparently trying.

Even in kickboxing I'm very relaxed and like to outwit people. If someone spaz on me I'll make sure I punish him by knee checking his shin or his punches hit my elbow. If someone spams stupid attacks I cause him pain to show him the error of his way.

My philosophy is move as little as possible, make the other guy move and outwit him. Reward excess aggression with suffering. I can move about half the speed of my opponent and it still works.

That is martial arts, this other thing to me is pointless contests to see who has the most physical attributes.

It's true these things matter but too much emphasis is placed on them to call it martial arts.
I'd say that I disagree with what you said in general.. about wrestlers being meathead with no finese...and it not being "true" martial arts if physical attributes are used... then I realized.. I'm a wrestler who forgot to tske my steroids today... ahhh! :rolleyes:

Crap like what you just said is what everyone had a problem with that whole "no strength philosophy". It's, stupid, elitist/snobbish, and a built in excuse when "martial arts" lose
 
I'm a pretty big, seasoned blue belt (6'4", 205-210). Yesterday I drop in a gym, and a MONSTROUS (6'4" or 6'5", 300+#) guy wearing a blue belt smashes the bejeezus out of me. Other than one decent triangle attempt, I could literally do nothing to him. To make it worse, he's saying stuff like "You're using too much strength." OK. After he leaves, I mention he feels nothing like any blue belt I've ever rolled with. Turns out he was a black belt having some fun.

The moral of the story? I have no idea.
 
I'm a pretty big, seasoned blue belt (6'4", 205-210). Yesterday I drop in a gym, and a MONSTROUS (6'4" or 6'5", 300+#) guy wearing a blue belt smashes the bejeezus out of me. Other than one decent triangle attempt, I could literally do nothing to him. To make it worse, he's saying stuff like "You're using too much strength." OK. After he leaves, I mention he feels nothing like any blue belt I've ever rolled with. Turns out he was a black belt having some fun.

The moral of the story? I have no idea.


wait wah!?!?
 
wait wah!?!?
knock out ned was there, ask him. It was pretty ridiculous getting squished by a guy who had size, strength, AND technique on me, while being coached by the guy WHO IS SQUISHING ME to use less strength and more technique. Think Roy Nelson with a bigger frame and no weight cut.
 
I'd say that I disagree with what you said in general.. about wrestlers being meathead with no finese...and it not being "true" martial arts if physical attributes are used... then I realized.. I'm a wrestler who forgot to tske my steroids today... ahhh! :rolleyes:

Crap like what you just said is what everyone had a problem with that whole "no strength philosophy". It's, stupid, elitist/snobbish, and a built in excuse when "martial arts" lose

They usually are, when I drill with an ex-wrestler sometimes these guys are breathing all hard and using strength during drilling. I'm like "wtf, why are you straining? Calm down spaz boy, try to be smooth. He's all like arrrrrgh! lol".

Their technique is hardly ever smooth which is a way of saying it stinks. They win because they were able to overwhelm or muscle their opponent. They lose to weaker, more experienced opponents as well, which proves the point.

It's sort of half skill, half muscle, not really jiu-jitsu. I don't see them developing a good guard or technique, it's just charging forward and overpowering... it's wrestling with submissions as an afterthought.

But some MMA examples, Mir was a big guy but he had technique as well as Werdum. They also have a great guard. Jiu-jitsu without guard is only Judo or wrestling depending on the attire.

Most of the guys that come from wrestling never develop real jiu-jitsu, maybe it's sub wrestling but it ain't jiu-jitusu.

It's morphing into something else, spazzier and shittier. It gets exposed when you see them get stuck on the bottom or in guard, places they never want to be.

So you give this fool a black belt because he's a good wrestler, anyone who comes to him for lessons will no longer learn jiu-jitsu, only his students do not have his wrestling background and physique so they are basically fucked.

Jiu-jitsu was designed so the physically inferior could prevail, not for the best wrestler and the guy who lift the most weights.

Jiu-jitsu is NOT meeting strength with strength, it isn't.
 
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They usually are, when I drill with an ex-wrestler sometimes these guys are breathing all hard and using strength during drilling. I'm like "wtf, why are you straining? Calm down spaz boy, try to be smooth. He's all like arrrrrgh! lol".

Their technique is hardly ever smooth which is a way of saying it stinks. They win because they were able to overwhelm or muscle their opponent.

It's sort of half skill, half muscle, not really jiu-jitsu. I don't see them developing a good guard or technique, it's just charging forward and overpowering... it's wrestling with submissions as an afterthought.

But some MMA examples, Mir was a big guy but he had technique as well as Werdum. They also have a great guard. Jiu-jitsu without guard is only Judo or wrestling depending on the attire.

Most of the guys that come from wrestling never develop real jiu-jitsu, maybe it's sub wrestling but it ain't jiu-jitusu.

It's morphing into something else, spazzier and shittier. It gets exposed when you see them get stuck on the bottom or in guard, places they never want to be.

So you give this fool a black belt because he's a good wrestler, anyone who comes to him for lessons will no longer learn jiu-jitsu, only his students do not have his wrestling background and physique so they are basically fucked.

Jiu-jitsu was designed so the physically inferior could prevail, not for the best wrestler and the guy who lift the most weights.


I disagree with 80% of this post.
 
I disagree with 80% of this post.

Can feel free to disagree with all of it.

Most people I roll with though, 90% of them are tense and spastic when it isn't remotely productive or they are fighting dirty, which is cheating and has nothing to do with skill.

Strength is ok, as long as it is doing something productive, an actual technique.

But if you need THAT much strength, your jiu-jitsu probably sucks balls.
 
Also a lot of these guys elbow you in the face or otherwise get their way by causing pain.

I have guys that start kicking me when I'm in the guard or elbowing to get out of side control. I'm like oh you wanna do MMA?

They take advantage that the other guy is too nice or civilized be rough back, but that doesn't make them any better.
 
I'm not sure where this comes from... Rener and Ryron?

Everyone I know who does BJJ is trying to kill his opponent in sparring. Strength is never banned, just bad technique which does not work when you are not overpowering a lighter guy and if so, the lighter guy just had to get better, that's why you often see far more technical light weights than heavy weights. Lighter guys have to be technical to survive the training.
 
Jiu-Jitsu should change because some lame troll on Sherdog says so?

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BJJ instructors insisting that students don't use any strength are as bad as TMA who don't let their students spar because the art is, "too deadly". Of course, strength on it's own is no substitute for good technique, but it is an important attribute.
 
I'm a pretty big, seasoned blue belt (6'4", 205-210). Yesterday I drop in a gym, and a MONSTROUS (6'4" or 6'5", 300+#) guy wearing a blue belt smashes the bejeezus out of me. Other than one decent triangle attempt, I could literally do nothing to him. To make it worse, he's saying stuff like "You're using too much strength." OK. After he leaves, I mention he feels nothing like any blue belt I've ever rolled with. Turns out he was a black belt having some fun.

The moral of the story? I have no idea.

He said that to you? That's priceless. Real life trolling at its finest, guys.

Mattemate is a pretty big dude, and he was dwarfed by this guy. The guy he was talking about was absolutely ginormous. Easily over 300 pounds. And super tall pushing 6'5. Maybe taller.
 
They usually are, when I drill with an ex-wrestler sometimes these guys are breathing all hard and using strength during drilling. I'm like "wtf, why are you straining? Calm down spaz boy, try to be smooth. He's all like arrrrrgh! lol".

Their technique is hardly ever smooth which is a way of saying it stinks. They win because they were able to overwhelm or muscle their opponent. They lose to weaker, more experienced opponents as well, which proves the point.

It's sort of half skill, half muscle, not really jiu-jitsu. I don't see them developing a good guard or technique, it's just charging forward and overpowering... it's wrestling with submissions as an afterthought.

But some MMA examples, Mir was a big guy but he had technique as well as Werdum. They also have a great guard. Jiu-jitsu without guard is only Judo or wrestling depending on the attire.

Most of the guys that come from wrestling never develop real jiu-jitsu, maybe it's sub wrestling but it ain't jiu-jitusu.

It's morphing into something else, spazzier and shittier. It gets exposed when you see them get stuck on the bottom or in guard, places they never want to be.

So you give this fool a black belt because he's a good wrestler, anyone who comes to him for lessons will no longer learn jiu-jitsu, only his students do not have his wrestling background and physique so they are basically fucked.

Jiu-jitsu was designed so the physically inferior could prevail, not for the best wrestler and the guy who lift the most weights.

Jiu-jitsu is NOT meeting strength with strength, it isn't.

I think we have very different ideas of what constitutes good jiu jitsu.
 
There's a difference between using strength all the time and using strength at the right time. At white and early blue belt, you don't have the technique nor the timing to use strength efficiently. Once you learn technique and get better timing, then strength, and additionally speed, become other factors at your disposal. So, strength is good to use, but not until you have some technique under your belt. You can't run until you can walk.

And really, the times I've made the biggest leaps in my grappling have been when I'm exhausted and have zero strength, because I was forced to completely rely on technique and timing. Pulling off on the strength at the beginning simulates that type of training.
 
There's a difference between using strength all the time and using strength at the right time. At white and early blue belt, you don't have the technique nor the timing to use strength efficiently. Once you learn technique and get better timing, then strength, and additionally speed, become other factors at your disposal. So, strength is good to use, but not until you have some technique under your belt. You can't run until you can walk.

And really, the times I've made the biggest leaps in my grappling have been when I'm exhausted and have zero strength, because I was forced to completely rely on technique and timing. Pulling off on the strength at the beginning simulates that type of training.
I disagree somewhat, training tired where you can't muscle it and hard intense drilling for time where a coach is watching and/or you are making yourself do it right over and over against a live opponent or partner giving a proper feel. Will get those gains quickly in a systematic way. I have met a lot of grapplers, wrestlers and fighters who are super focused on being "technical" at the beginning and try not to use too much "strength", and end up not being able to execute anything during live, or end up being the one who muscles stuff too much

After being around, taught by, and coaching (including a middle school team made up of almost all first year 6th or 7th graders). When learning a new technique or style, think of it like learning to walk, it's not going to be very effecient at first and you'll stumble and the mistakes are what clean up your technique. But if you don't develop the proper strength/horsepower in your legs, you aren't walking. The way I approach getting them to be "technical" is roughly this pattern
1. Teach habits, principles, and positions NOT technique
2. Teach the technique based off the principles and positioning working backwards, breaking it down as needed
3. Drill the snot out of it and don't let them do it wrong, doesn't have to be perfect technique, but they have to stay in good position
3. Get them to have success with it in live/competition, but also expect them to fail too, experience is a great teacher
4. Once they have had some success and failure then start making/teaching more and more technical...and
5. Drill the shit out of it properly
6. THEN, as they progress, start teaching them how to relax without being tired first, teach them how to 'spar'/slow roll, almost play, feeling positions and scrambles out on their own


I can give examples of how this is done or explain it more, but I have had success with it and seen coaches get their entire team wrestling very very very technically and not winning on strength, but having it there.
 
I think we have very different ideas of what constitutes good jiu jitsu.

We also differ on what constitutes an intelligent conversation.

Like the other rocket scientist opined, "I disagree with 80% of this post".
 
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