James Toney v Marvin Hagler

treelo said:
Got thinking about this today, and while i think Toney is the better technical boxer, i just think he lacked output at times, and coupled with Haglers resilience, i feel 8/10 Hagler would have won the fight on points

I think on the odd accasion we could have seen Hagler stopped on cuts, but i think it would have been few and far between.

Love both these fighters, they both have amazing qualities as fighter, i dont think if Hagler had of had the same cut he did against Hearns, that he would have been able to stop Toney, other than the Jones mistake, i dont remember him ever going down or being hurt in the slightest

Would have been a match-up for the time, imagine Toney was just a decade younger, he would have been in there with the fantastic 4
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Also two of my favorites. I'd probably favor Hagler outworking Toney to win a decision especially in a 15 round fight. I guess it wouldn't matter in a fight between both these guys at their peak but Hagler was always in great shape while Toney sometimes struggled with his weight.
 
Tatra said:
Toney lost to Drake Thadzi and Montell Griffin twice. He thought of himself as some defensive genius but he's too inactive and could be outworked.
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He was a defensive genius that stayed in the pocket ready to counter. In this type of fantasy matchup I'd consider them both in their primes.
 
StewDogg11 said:
I can’t find it but some fight on ESPN in the late 90s he showed up fat and out of shape and had dreadlocks. Here’s a pick proving he’s not bald though and with more than a single hair on his head:

View attachment 1107307
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He always had close cropped hair. If he ever came into a fight with dreadlocks I must have missed it. {<shrug}
 
LangfordBarrow said:
He was a defensive genius that stayed in the pocket ready to counter. In this type of fantasy matchup I'd consider them both in their primes.
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Defensive geniuses don't end up drooling when they talk. He was a talented counter-puncher who sat in the pocket and fired back with hard shots but he only looked good against b-levels and cans. Floyd is a true defensive genius, Toney is not. His record is very weak, considering he views himself as the greatest ever.
 
Tatra said:
He was lazy at any weight, even 'in shape' at 160. Nunn was outworking him (and winning) until the KO. His other notable fights at 160 were a draw against McCallum and a close rematch win against him. McCallum was also past his prime for both fights.
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McCallum is also a guy on par with the 4 Kings even if never got the chance to fight them.
 
Tatra said:
Defensive geniuses don't end up drooling when they talk. He was a talented counter-puncher who sat in the pocket and fired back with hard shots but he only looked good against b-levels and cans. Floyd is a true defensive genius, Toney is not. His record is very weak, considering he views himself as the greatest ever.
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Yeah, that's gonna be a no from me, dawg. I guess you don't know Toney was a gym rat that spent all his time sparring and against anyone no matter their size.
 
Tatra said:
He was washed up?
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I wouldn't say Hagler was washed up in the Leonard fight, but it was definitely the slowest version of him we saw. He had just gone to hell and back with John Mugabi for 11 rounds and Leonard agreed to the fight only after seeing that performance. Contrast this with Leonard saying something to the effect of "That's why I'm staying retired" after watching Hagler KO Hearns a few years earlier. Still, even with a slow Hagler, Leonard barely squeaked by in a SD which is widely disputed to this day.
 


From the boxing sim "Undisputed."

I still favor Hagler over Toney, regardless.
 
Confucamus said:
I wouldn't say Hagler was washed up in the Leonard fight, but it was definitely the slowest version of him we saw. He had just gone to hell and back with John Mugabi for 11 rounds and Leonard agreed to the fight only after seeing that performance. Contrast this with Leonard saying something to the effect of "That's why I'm staying retired" after watching Hagler KO Hearns a few years earlier. Still, even with a slow Hagler, Leonard barely squeaked by in a SD which is widely disputed to this day.
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I scored it a draw but Hagler could have started off better.
 
LangfordBarrow said:
I scored it a draw but Hagler could have started off better.
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I'll tell you this, and I've said it on here before. I've actually sat down and scored this fight on three separate occasions years ago. First time I scored it for Hagler. Second and third time I scored it for Ray Leonard. It's one of those fights where you see how subjective the scoring criteria can be sometimes. It's all about what you're looking for, I guess.
 
I am a fan of hagler. And I have been impressed by toney.

Toney was inconsistent and under motivated throughout his career. Hagler was always a hard worker in the fights I've seen and I think he'd take the the W. I don't think he would get frustrated and lose his battle plan. It would of been a good scrap(theoretically)
 
LangfordBarrow said:
Yeah, that's gonna be a no from me, dawg. I guess you don't know Toney was a gym rat that spent all his time sparring and against anyone no matter their size.
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He got hit so much. How is he a defensive genius? He took hard, flush shots in virtually all of his fights. There's a reason people talk about how great his chin was. When do people talk about Floyd's chin? Because he never had to rely on it, hence his status as a defensive master. He was also known for his laziness. He was nothing close to a gym rat. He moved up through the weights to HW precisely because he couldn't control his eating habits.

What do you disagree with? Are you saying his record is impressive? Are you aware who he lost to?
 
Tatra said:
He got hit so much. How is he a defensive genius? He took hard, flush shots in virtually all of his fights. There's a reason people talk about how great his chin was. When do people talk about Floyd's chin? Because he never had to rely on it, hence his status as a defensive master. He was also known for his laziness. He was nothing close to a gym rat. He moved up through the weights to HW precisely because he couldn't control his eating habits.

What do you disagree with? Are you saying his record is impressive? Are you aware who he lost to?
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He didn’t get hit cleanly that much at all. He took a ton of hard shots on the gloves (which obviously still rattles your brain) because he was so good at counter fighting in a phone booth. He had the athletic ability to fight differently especially early on (he could’ve gone to Michigan State on a football scholarship) but that type of gameplan requires a different level of cardio he obviously was too lazy to put in the work for.

You can still be a gym rat but not like to do the necessary roadwork. He loved to spar but wasn’t lacing up his combat boots to go run 5 miles at 5:00 AM like Hagler was.
 
Tatra said:
He got hit so much. How is he a defensive genius? He took hard, flush shots in virtually all of his fights. There's a reason people talk about how great his chin was. When do people talk about Floyd's chin? Because he never had to rely on it, hence his status as a defensive master. He was also known for his laziness. He was nothing close to a gym rat. He moved up through the weights to HW precisely because he couldn't control his eating habits.

What do you disagree with? Are you saying his record is impressive? Are you aware who he lost to?
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What was his first fight that you watched live?
 
StewDogg11 said:
He didn’t get hit cleanly that much at all. He took a ton of hard shots on the gloves (which obviously still rattles your brain) because he was so good at counter fighting in a phone booth. He had the athletic ability to fight differently especially early on (he could’ve gone to Michigan State on a football scholarship) but that type of gameplan requires a different level of cardio he obviously was too lazy to put in the work for.

You can still be a gym rat but not like to do the necessary roadwork. He loved to spar but wasn’t lacing up his combat boots to go run 5 miles at 5:00 AM like Hagler was.
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It's not uncommon for fighters to take more damage in the gym than they do from actual fights. Not only can they spar day after day it also depends on who, if anyone, is supervising the sparring.
 
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