Economy It's Not Just Low Income Jobs That Are At Risk Of Automation...

[Possum Jenkins]

Have you read Lord Bertie's, "In Praise of Idleness"? Your post reminds me of that:

http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

I'll quote a bit, but it's short, and I recommend the whole thing



The economics of that aren't really right (the people who lost their jobs find other ones, and everyone ends up better off), but the basic point about leisure growth rather than wealth growth makes sense.

Good shit.

I agree, in the short term everyone finds new jobs. But in the long term, and with automation taking a VERY big chunk of the onerous work of society, greater leisure and idle time could and should be spread out across the board. So yeah, they'll find jobs, but these new jobs should come with less hours and/or longer vacation.

Policy will be key though. This increase in production will create an increase in wealth and if it's not spread out fairly, could create more inequality.

 

[Abezal]

This is amusing far away from what automation is, is good for, and ever will be. I work with automation every day, it has strengths and weaknesses compared to people. There is always a place for people in areas that computers are weak at.

lol, and there's place for them there for what another 10 to 15 years at best. And by then the computer is vastly better then a hung over mentally shot person going threw a divorce. Wild guess the computer connected to a super computer will be better.

 

[Cid]

I agree we have to change our thinking, but first things first.

My actual argument is that we are ill prepared to deal with the rise in automation and I don't think we ever will be.

We have a lot of issues to resolve before this country becomes either a socialist utopia, communist utopia, mixed economy utopia, or capitalist dystopia.
(Are any of these Utopias actual Utopias...?)

Infrastructure
Healthcare
Education
War
Climate change
Debt

We're the richest country in the world and we're still behind pretty much anybody that matters in these areas, but somehow were going to rally and save the day? Not likely.


And none of this even address the psychosocial impact of not working.

So I'm not saying j have the answer.

As for TANF, rallying around discretionary money for tattoos and casinos as a mechanism of changing the way we think is putting the cart before the horse, if not missing the boat altogether. By not helping bring these people into society, we're not helping them or society.

You're a bit of a pessimist

The yay capitalism boo socialism obsession Americans have does put you at a distinct disadvantage compared to countries like mine in the chances of not fucking this up I can't really argue that one.

I'll admit to being the smug foreign guy in that we generally do sit above you in most of the standard of living indexes and stuff like that when I google them but you're not doing that bad really.

Our infrastructure and public transport needs to be improved, we're there for every war, have less downtrodden minorities which helps with education and we just had an American economics shill, climate change denier who took the axe to healthcare, the poor and our state funded science institutions.

I think we can both pull past it. Scares me a little that you're all armed to the teeth rather than getting involved in the democratic process as a means of protecting yourself from the inevitable but still I'm hopeful you can do it without massive bloodshed.


Why do you think unemployed people need to work to be part of society or improve it? It's at odds with the belief that mass unemployment is inevitable and the reality that with increased productivity we as humans are becoming less important in providing our needs and wants as a society.

If these people having jobs is a requisite for societal improvement and their sense of purpose you're setting yourself up for failure when said jobs are gone.

If you don't set up a system where people can find self worth and the ability to live in the standard that they have been accustomed to without the employment they enjoyed then you're going to have an incredible amount of poor, resentful and well armed people.

I can't know for certain what the future entails but I can't imagine some of the draconian anti unemployment measures you guys put in place on the unemployed like this are going to pan out. We need to increase their standards and self worth while they're at 10% rather than 40% if we want to avoid a shit storm.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

You're a bit of a pessimist

The yay capitalism boo socialism obsession Americans have does put you at a distinct disadvantage compared to countries like mine in the chances of not fucking this up I can't really argue that one.

I'll admit to being the smug foreign guy in that we generally do sit above you in most of the standard of living indexes and stuff like that when I google them but you're not doing that bad really.

Our infrastructure and public transport needs to be improved, we're there for every war, have less downtrodden minorities which helps with education and we just had an American economics shill, climate change denier who took the axe to healthcare, the poor and our state funded science institutions.

I think we can both pull past it. Scares me a little that you're all armed to the teeth rather than getting involved in the democratic process as a means of protecting yourself from the inevitable but still I'm hopeful you can do it without massive bloodshed.


Why do you think unemployed people need to work to be part of society or improve it? It's at odds with the belief that mass unemployment is inevitable and the reality that with increased productivity we as humans are becoming less important in providing our needs and wants as a society.

If these people having jobs is a requisite for societal improvement and their sense of purpose you're setting yourself up for failure when said jobs are gone.

If you don't set up a system where people can find self worth and the ability to live in the standard that they have been accustomed to without the employment they enjoyed then you're going to have an incredible amount of poor, resentful and well armed people.

I can't know for certain what the future entails but I can't imagine some of the draconian anti unemployment measures you guys put in place on the unemployed like this are going to pan out. We need to increase their standards and self worth while they're at 10% rather than 40% if we want to avoid a shit storm.

I was just about to crash so I'll have to give you a full response tomorrow or Wed.
I'm not anti-socialism at all. In fact a lot of my disgruntledness is with capitalism run amok.

 

[Cid]

My support of Paul and Johnson were due to their foreign policy and civil rights platforms, not their economic policies.
It goes both ways. I just value life and freedom more than Goverment assistance for tattoos and casinos.

Should have said liberterian/anti war.

 

[Cid]

I was just about to crash so I'll have to give you a full response tomorrow or Wed.
I'm not anti-socialism at all. In fact a lot of my disgruntledness is with capitalism run amok.

No worries, wasn't claiming you were just a comparison of our countries in that regard.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

Should have said liberterian/anti war.

I do have libertarian views on war and civil liberties, even for smaller government - but that actually conflicts with other socialist leanings I have.

 

[5H3RD0G]

.............................maybe a robot AI will take over the whole show since no one excels at anything at all on our little planet.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

You're a bit of a pessimist

The yay capitalism boo socialism obsession Americans have does put you at a distinct disadvantage compared to countries like mine in the chances of not fucking this up I can't really argue that one.

I'll admit to being the smug foreign guy in that we generally do sit above you in most of the standard of living indexes and stuff like that when I google them but you're not doing that bad really.

Our infrastructure and public transport needs to be improved, we're there for every war, have less downtrodden minorities which helps with education and we just had an American economics shill, climate change denier who took the axe to healthcare, the poor and our state funded science institutions.

I think we can both pull past it. Scares me a little that you're all armed to the teeth rather than getting involved in the democratic process as a means of protecting yourself from the inevitable but still I'm hopeful you can do it without massive bloodshed.


Why do you think unemployed people need to work to be part of society or improve it? It's at odds with the belief that mass unemployment is inevitable and the reality that with increased productivity we as humans are becoming less important in providing our needs and wants as a society.

If these people having jobs is a requisite for societal improvement and their sense of purpose you're setting yourself up for failure when said jobs are gone.

If you don't set up a system where people can find self worth and the ability to live in the standard that they have been accustomed to without the employment they enjoyed then you're going to have an incredible amount of poor, resentful and well armed people.

I can't know for certain what the future entails but I can't imagine some of the draconian anti unemployment measures you guys put in place on the unemployed like this are going to pan out. We need to increase their standards and self worth while they're at 10% rather than 40% if we want to avoid a shit storm.

I'm a pessimist in that I see the past as an indication of whats going to happen in the future.
I'm optimistic in the sense that the stuff we need to accomplish is possible with some honesty, hard work, and proper leadership.

My political philosophy is a mixed bag. Some people want to identify strictly as libertarians, conservatives, socialists, liberals, capitalists and take that position on every issue.
I feel politics and society are best ruled like a plumber or carpenter, with different tools for different jobs. That is pretty much how America is organized and worked well for a long time, but it seems that its been corrupted. I don't own a gun myself and think some people are gun crazy, but I don't think that innate fear gun rights folks have is without merit.

I think work is important and character building. I think its good for a person mentally and physically to involve themselves is some form of labor that leads to something whether it be fixing a bike, road, car, or completing a sale, providing customer service, saving a life, etc. Also, that work not only makes somebody a contributing member of society, it simply involves them in society. I don't believe in the safety net as an career choice and I think people have become too dependent on it. Its like Percocet. Give a little for the pain, but then it feels so good they're hooked and the doctor doesn't have the integrity to get them help and get them off the drug. Self worth doesn't come from getting a check for nothing. Not only that, but like I said in a previous post, we have a lot of work to do; not only on our infrastructure but in our society and I think its essential that everybody that can contribute, does contribute. When the jobs are all gone, its going to take a enlightened society to adapt to whatever system emerges because that system will either be the will of the people (utopia) or the will of the powerful (dystopia).

 

[Greoric]

I was just about to crash so I'll have to give you a full response tomorrow or Wed.
I'm not anti-socialism at all. In fact a lot of my disgruntledness is with capitalism run amok.

Maybe you can help me with this. Is this just a hipster or contrarian view point because you don't want to go along with conventional understanding?

What's the foundation of your complaint about capitalism? Is it based off a moral disagreement with free markets? Or do you think that socialism is just better able to allocate resources better?

 

[nixkid]

Hey don't diss VR...

We're all going to have jobs in the virtual world when there are no jobs for us in the real-world.

Check out Job Simulator for the Oculus Rift.

That is a glimpse into our future.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

Maybe you can help me with this. Is this just a hipster or contrarian view point because you don't want to go along with conventional understanding?

No, its not.

What's the foundation of your complaint about capitalism? Is it based off a moral disagreement with free markets? Or do you think that socialism is just better able to allocate resources better?

I think a mixed economy with accountability to society and the environment is more appropriate than lobbying for deregulation that endangers bother to satisfy shareholders.
I wouldn't want a purely socialist economy, but there are areas that democratic socialism or a New Deal economy helps keep things from falling apart.

 

[Greoric]

I think a mixed economy with accountability to society and the environment is more appropriate than lobbying for deregulation that endangers bother to satisfy shareholders.
I wouldn't want a purely socialist economy, but there are areas that democratic socialism or a New Deal economy helps keep things from falling apart.

What if I told you that corporations, actually a product of government, lobby for more regulations in their respective industries?

 

[Anung Un Rama]

What if I told you that corporations, actually a product of government, lobby for more regulations in their respective industries?

If you told me that, I would ask you to qualify that statement.

 

[Greoric]

If you told me that, I would ask you to qualify that statement.

Here's one instance for you.

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2010/...od-safety-during-second-quarter/#.Vz1YQvkrKIA

Big tobacco, for instance, does the same sort of thing to lobby for more federal regulations.

It's a basic strategy for them. They want to raise the barriers of entry for new entrants into the market place. They're not as afraid of innovation coming from their principle competitors. They're afraid of it coming from the new arrivals.

More over, remember corporations were born as a illegal entity to shield its owners from full responsibility of their mistakes. That protection is created and enforced by government.

You're blaming the wrong people my man.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

Here's one instance for you.

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2010/...od-safety-during-second-quarter/#.Vz1YQvkrKIA

Big tobacco, for instance, does the same sort of thing to lobby for more federal regulations.

It's a basic strategy for them. They want to raise the barriers of entry for new entrants into the market place. They're not as afraid of innovation coming from their principle competitors. They're afraid of it

More over, remember corporations were born as a illegal entity to shield its owners from full responsibility of their mistakes. That protection is created and enforced by government.

You're blaming the wrong people my man.

Thanks for the link.
I'll read up on this and respond sometime tomorrow.

 

[Protectandserve]

My job getting automated made for an awesome 80's action movie.

"Dead or alive, you're coming with me."

 

[Cid]

Here's one instance for you.

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2010/...od-safety-during-second-quarter/#.Vz1YQvkrKIA

Big tobacco, for instance, does the same sort of thing to lobby for more federal regulations.

It's a basic strategy for them. They want to raise the barriers of entry for new entrants into the market place. They're not as afraid of innovation coming from their principle competitors. They're afraid of it coming from the new arrivals.

More over, remember corporations were born as a illegal entity to shield its owners from full responsibility of their mistakes. That protection is created and enforced by government.

You're blaming the wrong people my man.

Big Tobacco also shifted it's businesses to different countries with the sole intention of suing my country because of it's plain label packaging laws.

They also moved a shit load of their market to 3rd world countries where they could avoid the current restrictions that many countries in the west have in place.


There's also that time they made chemicals to make it more addictive and the decades of propaganda and misinformation they used to undermine the health problems they cause.

Really you couldn't have picked a much worse business as an example. Tobacco companies fighting regulations and governments for continued profit from their poison is quite well known.

They're not fighting for regulation but rather anything to make their brand stronger.

 

[Cid]

I'm a pessimist in that I see the past as an indication of whats going to happen in the future.
I'm optimistic in the sense that the stuff we need to accomplish is possible with some honesty, hard work, and proper leadership.

My political philosophy is a mixed bag. Some people want to identify strictly as libertarians, conservatives, socialists, liberals, capitalists and take that position on every issue.
I feel politics and society are best ruled like a plumber or carpenter, with different tools for different jobs. That is pretty much how America is organized and worked well for a long time, but it seems that its been corrupted. I don't own a gun myself and think some people are gun crazy, but I don't think that innate fear gun rights folks have is without merit.

I think work is important and character building. I think its good for a person mentally and physically to involve themselves is some form of labor that leads to something whether it be fixing a bike, road, car, or completing a sale, providing customer service, saving a life, etc. Also, that work not only makes somebody a contributing member of society, it simply involves them in society. I don't believe in the safety net as an career choice and I think people have become too dependent on it. Its like Percocet. Give a little for the pain, but then it feels so good they're hooked and the doctor doesn't have the integrity to get them help and get them off the drug. Self worth doesn't come from getting a check for nothing. Not only that, but like I said in a previous post, we have a lot of work to do; not only on our infrastructure but in our society and I think its essential that everybody that can contribute, does contribute. When the jobs are all gone, its going to take a enlightened society to adapt to whatever system emerges because that system will either be the will of the people (utopia) or the will of the powerful (dystopia).

Honestly man it comes across like you're training firefighters by having them do drills swimming in the ocean.

I'm not saying we can't try to find people jobs. I'm just saying that as a solution to mass unemployment having obsolete people finding jobs as your main objective seems to be like swimming in the ocean in training to put out a fire.

Getting people jobs that don't required a person is like getting your dog to format your computer. As a plan it's just woefully bad.

Also this idea that we need everything perfect in order to prepare for mass technological advancements isn't really well thought out either.

 

[Greoric]

Big Tobacco also shifted it's businesses to different countries with the sole intention of suing my country because of it's plain label packaging laws.

They also moved a shit load of their market to 3rd world countries where they could avoid the current restrictions that many countries in the west have in place.


There's also that time they made chemicals to make it more addictive and the decades of propaganda and misinformation they used to undermine the health problems they cause.

Really you couldn't have picked a much worse business as an example. Tobacco companies fighting regulations and governments for continued profit from their poison is quite well known.

They're not fighting for regulation but rather anything to make their brand stronger.

Part of keeping their brand strong is keeping competitors out. A greater regulatory burden allows already established companies to do that.

No one cares about your emotional argument or anecdotes.