Social Is "Woke" going too far?

[ChosenOne]

Look back on your last dozen or so contributions in this thread

I have. Not once do i defend it as good. I only say the owners have the right to make and it is not 'wrong', 'racist', etc to do so as you and others cry about it.

 

[krelianx]

Wokeness is an extension of what is called 'identity politics': the idea that political action and emancipation is leveraged by and for specific identity-groups or cultural niches: ethnic, gender, religious, racial, national... it took the place of 'traditional' emancipatory political agendas centered around predominantly class status.

It became the predominant form of social democratic politics levered by the Western left roughly since the Civil Rights movement in the 60s, and continued through the gay and lesbian rights movement. It also coincided with the development of specific developments in the critical humanities and new theoretical paradigms in philosophy and the social sciences: critical theory, postcolonial studies, third-wave feminism (Butler, Wittig...), intersectionality studies (Crewnshaw), deconstruction (Derrida), Foucaultian genealogy, new orientations in Marxist criticism, indigeneity studies, liberation theology and dependency theory, historiography... just to name a few. The major idea was complicating the 'economicist' tendencies of orthodox Marxian theory and its offshoots to think of other forms of determination beyond class, their interactions, and to think of ways to go beyond the residual occidentalist, Eurocentric, Hegelian-metaphysical, teleological undercurrents in Marx...

There are several recurrent tropes that come from these vectors of thought, some of which are:

1) The deconstruction of conceptual binaries: This is an extension of the critique of metaphysics initiated by Heidegger and extended by Derrida, Foucault, and others through historicist, deconstructionist, and genealogy methods. What begins with an assault against foundational antinomies in Western philosophical history (eidos/soma, soul/body, res cogitans/res extensa...) becomes extended into a general critique of how specific conceptual oppositions have operated normatively to generate systems of exclusion and benefits, often through underwritten assumptions. Third wave feminism was central to this, and Butler's Gender Trouble remains, in my view, the essential book, in the extension of this to gender/sexual binaries. Others have attempted similar operations in other registers.

The whole 'gender pronoun' thing, for example, stems from youth culture groups in American schools influenced by these trends, trends which are present at the core of curriculae in the Humanities in the academy and the social sciences, and arts, e.g. American Latino immigrants and their generational descendants coined the Larinx movement as a way to think of the relation between language and power relations, extending on what Butler had already worked in her critique of gender/sex binarism.

2) The critique of Occidentalism and colonialism: Extending on the critique of imperialism leveraged by Marxist scholarship, a more attentive relation to how processes of colonization since the 16th Century have shaped not only the history of geopolitical violence and its concomitant phenomena (slavery, capitalism, neofeudal landlord oligarchic systems...) but also cultural expansionism and ideology. This has also allowed for a different conception of racism to be extrapolated from the traditional subjectivist definition, in what is termed "structural racism" today. The 'structure' part is a direct reference to how structuralist and poststructuralist theoretical approaches (notably coming from post-War French philosophy and social sciences) recoded certain tenets and methods of historical materialism through the extension of structuralist analysis, e.g. Althusser, Balibar, Ranciere; more recently, Zizek, Badiou, Ranciere...

3) A generalized social constionist approach to categories that are often taken as natural, or given: sex, gender, morality.... often times this leads to a difficult negotiation between a kind of cultural relativism (who are we to judge others) and the defense of minoritarian/vulnerable population rights (we ought to defend against the abuses to women/indigenous groups...)

Has it gone "too far"? Well, it is clear it has succeeded on many fronts and failed in others, and it has definitely generated a kind of violent reactionary trend that feels almost by sheer antagonism the compulsion to recoil into radical forms of essentialism, binarist, even facistoid and nationalist sentiments. This is the result of 'woke culture' taking a specifically ineffective approach to advancing their causes, most notably the whole "cancel culture" phenomenon which collided very strongly not only with 'libertarian' oriented people, but with the very youth-cultural impetus who doesn't like to be told what they can and cannot say.

Above all, the woke-left, I think has to be blamed for allowing issues of class inequality to slip in favor of identity politics, to the point of disenfranchising the white working class in many parts of the world. The so-called "Alt-Right' has done very well in seizing this gap through new forms of populist, xenophobic, and pseudo-technocratic ideology. I think the left is in dire need of restructuration, and that the dominance of woke culture in the academy and mediatic apparatus is holding the left back from this, having transformed these organs into essentially propaganda machines (what Moldbug and NRx people name The Cathedral).

But as with everything, it is important not to throw the baby with the bathwater.

 

[Hog-train]

I am arguing against the people arguing against it saying it WRONG, RACIST, etc for them to do it.

Not the people, saying like i do, that i do not often like it.

Stop being a retard and read the chat.

WTF - YOU literally just said they've been catering to me for 100 + years.

Duck you talking about.

And in which ever market you are in and when you face changes sure you can cry and scream "RACIST"... "WOKE"... "WRONG" when that catering is no longer to YOU while at the same time IGNORING they catered to YOU, for the last 100+ years plus, but when you do i will exercise my right to point out you are whiny pussy who should be mocked.

 

[ChosenOne]

WTF - YOU literally just said they've been catering to me for 100 + years.

Duck you talking about.

What you are saying is false and obviously false as you have not been alive 100 years.

i was speaking generally about people in a ranked way and how big Media (Movies, TV, etc) pander.

The hierarchy in America has been white males, then whites generally, then males of all color, then women, then LGBTQ. Each added in as their faces and spending power got recognized by big media.

You, at some point way AFTER i started this line, jumped in and made a point you are not even white, but that did not change or impact my point made prior or since as this has never been about specific individuals. That is not how companies pander and market. They do so to groups they can identify and market to.

 

[HereticBD]

You, at some point way AFTER i started this line, jumped in and made a point you are not even white, but that did not change or impact my point made prior or since as this has never been about specific individuals. That is not how companies pander and market. They do so to groups they can identify and market to.

The problem with your whole...err...examination, is that it doesn't add up. They are OVER pandering to minorities. It's not smart business. You bring up Bollywood pandering to Indians, but that makes sense. American media is going out of it's way to pander to minority groups in the country in a very forced and artificial way. It would be like Bollywood pandering to the select few gay Christian people in the area.

Your overall point is correct in terms of demographic pandering, but it's not applicable to America and the way they're doing it with select groups within America. It's why a movie like "Bro's", which is a raunchy R-rated homosexual comedy, appealed to nobody but a select few homosexuals and white Liberal academics who considered it a duty to see it.

"Know your audience" is your point. The problem with how you're presenting that mantra, is that the American companies creating this never ending stream of woke garbage, clearly do NOT "know their audience". They're trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

 

[Hog-train]

What you are saying is false and obviously false as you have not been alive 100 years.

i was speaking generally about people in a ranked way and how big Media (Movies, TV, etc) pander.

The hierarchy in America has been white males, then whites generally, then males of all color, then women, then LGBTQ. Each added in as their faces and spending power got recognized by big media.

You, at some point way AFTER i started this line, jumped in and made a point you are not even white, but that did not change or impact my point made prior or since as this has never been about specific individuals. That is not how companies pander and market. They do so to groups they can identify and market to.

You're full of shit. You clearly thought I was white by how you capitalized "YOU" "They've been pandering to YOU for 100 years."

And you completely ignored my original point. I am not white and I still do not like when they race or gender swap EXISTING characters.

It would be catering to white people if they kept only making white people in NEW ROLES. But we're talking about EXISTING characters that have been with us for decades.

No one fucking wants to see a black or Latino or gay Superman or Batman. No one wants to see a black Little Mermaid. Even minorities don't want to see that shit. It's lame as fuck. MAKE NEW CHARACTERS.

 

[SuperAlly]

I have. Not once do i defend it as good. I only say the owners have the right to make and it is not 'wrong', 'racist', etc to do so as you and others cry about it.

You do a lot of crying while whining about crying

You are overly emotionally invested in this

The lack of self awareness is amusing

That's the point

 

[Scerpi]

^ also arguably the most stupid thing written ever on this forum.

All businesses, EVERY SINGLE one wants to examine their customers, and understand them at every level and tailor content or products that will appeal to them segment by segment.

They do not just say 'we will have one Soda and one Soda only that WE THINK is the best' and instead they will make versions for numerous niches and even ethnicities that they think will appeal to each of them.

You are just a complete ignoramus in thinking business should not do this.

If the Chinese like a certain thing in their soda then that will be put in for their market, etc, etc,

That you do not know this or think 'companies should be above that type or pandering', is why you need to shut up and learn instead of talk.

Lol… dude, you’re having seizure

Get some help… lol





The Marvels lost almost $200 million… any questions?

 

[ChosenOne]

The problem with your whole...err...examination, is that it doesn't add up. They are OVER pandering to minorities. It's not smart business. You bring up Bollywood pandering to Indians, but that makes sense. American media is going out of it's way to pander to minority groups in the country in a very forced and artificial way. It would be like Bollywood pandering to the select few gay Christian people in the area.

Your overall point is correct in terms of demographic pandering, but it's not applicable to America and the way they're doing it with select groups within America. It's why a movie like "Bro's", which is a raunchy R-rated homosexual comedy, appealed to nobody but a select few homosexuals and white Liberal academics who considered it a duty to see it.

"Know your audience" is your point. The problem with how you're presenting that mantra, is that the American companies creating this never ending stream of woke garbage, clearly do NOT "know their audience". They're trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

Did you add this up as i did one prior on a bet. Do you want to bet?

A quick examination of Hollywood movies and we look at Lead and Supporting actors in the Movies on release right now and count how many are white and how many are PoC and see how it reflects the population?

The last time i did it, in that bet was many years ago, and it was not even close. Whites still dominated despite the myth. It may well have changed ENOUGH now but i doubt it.

But you and i are not really disagreeing. I am NOT saying they get their pandering right. New Coke missed the mark. As they try to read the changing face of the audience and pander to them they often get things wrong. That is the nature of ALL BUSINESS when your consumer is changing.

At the front end of that change you often have some who jump to try and grab market share who are too early and misread the market. It is so common in business they have a term for it and that is 'do not be bleeding edge... be leading edge'.

 

[ChosenOne]

You're full of shit. You clearly thought I was white by how you capitalized "YOU" "They've been pandering to YOU for 100 years."

And you completely ignored my original point. I am not white and I still do not like when they race or gender swap EXISTING characters.

It would be catering to white people if they kept only making white people in NEW ROLES. But we're talking about EXISTING characters that have been with us for decades.

No one fucking wants to see a black or Latino or gay Superman or Batman. No one wants to see a black Little Mermaid. Even minorities don't want to see that shit. It's lame as fuck. MAKE NEW CHARACTERS.

No. I never though HOllywood was making material asking 'what does Hog-train want and how do we get it to them'. Stop being stupid.

By YOU, and i maintain as they are pandering to YOU, i mean any combination of 'WHITE' ...'MALE'' ...'FEMALE' and the priority tree.

Try to read and understand this. HOllywood Producers will try to best hit the BIGGEST groups in the audience with the most appealing material. If you are in those groups Hollywood is pandering to YOU.

So if you are Chinese and you watched the last Top Gun movie, and increasing more and more movies HOllywood was pandering to YOU. That YOU is includes Chinese but is not limited to CHinese.

 

[ChosenOne]

Lol… dude, you’re having seizure

Get some help… lol





The Marvels lost almost $200 million… any questions?

If you find a single person arguing it is GOOD and making money in the box office you should share that post with them.

NO WHERE IN ANY OF MY POSTS do you see me argue that so i will just skip over your strawmans.

 

[ChosenOne]

Once again to be clear the arguments i am addressing have nothing to do with saying woke shit is GOOD or WINNING in the box office. it is not an argument i have made.

I have only addressed those saying Producers making such content are WRONG or BEING RACIST, as if pandering to the face (change) of an audience has never been done prior when in fact it is the ENTIRE history of Production not just in movies but across most consumer products.

There are people here in denial of how WOKE production has ALWAYS been because few can see the pandering when they are the beneficiary of it. There simply is no deny that if you are white male in America you have had the most woke pandering of any group. Well over 100 years. UNDENIABLE. Then it would be 'white females', then 'all males' and so on. And now it is shifting and as it focuses on LGBTQ and Chinese, etc, it is simply more noticeable to you.

Seeing a hetero couple kiss is just something that never registered to most, if hetero. Seeing a gay couple kiss, not only gets noticed but can shock the hetero viewer. That leads many to cry 'wrong' and 'woke' and it IS NOT. No more than the hetero person kissing was. They are both woke.

 

[UberHere]

You do a lot of crying while whining about crying

You are overly emotionally invested in this

The lack of self awareness is amusing

That's the point

If he had any self awareness, his abortion of a thread linked below would’ve humbled Him and maybe prompted him to seek wisdom. But alas, here we are laughing at him still.

Opinion Thread 'The Return of the two party systems, Democrat Party versus Progressive Party'

Oct 4, 2024

When the Trump Magat party fails again, i predict the movement will fracture and make any semblance of a Conservative Party emerging to any success, near impossible for a decade or more. The Magats will not support any attempt to gain their votes without another Trump like leader doubling down on hate and division, and the rest of the Conservatives will not support the repeat of groundhog day, pushing clear predictable loss after clear predictable loss.

Meanwhile on the Center and to the Left, drunk on the power they are being given by a fractured right, the Progressive movement...

• ChosenOne
• Replies: 24
• Forum: The War Room

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