Is this Renzo Gracie quote accurate from your experience?

[MCS]

Schools are all topics mixed together, even in just one specific subject. BJJ is one topic with all the history and knowledge combined in a continuous stream. The focus on 1 topic tends to be more thorough. There is also the evolving of the art while in class side. Unless you're a researcher the same doesn't go on in colleges. You are there as the recipient, not the contributor.

 

[Auspex]

Academia doesn't pay like you think it would

You should see MMA!!! Really, unless you're at the top, you're making like 20k a year......even an elementary school teacher is making 40k/yr...and doesn't have to pay coaches!

 

[NoStoneUnturned]

It has been my experience that some martial arts teachers suffer from ultracrepidarianism, or another way to put it is an "Argument from False Authority". Which is the belief that because they are an expert on this one topic or topics that their opinions should be considered as fact on a range of topics outside their realm. Seems to run particularly deep in martial arts schools as "might makes right" with some teachers presenting a false front of humility. Even though I'm pretty heavily involved in grappling none of my close friends are and I never discuss grappling outside the confines of the room or this forum. I prefer to train and leave, thanks but no philosophy.

 

[RogerB08]

He's right

Real world knowledge trumps bullshit citation rings by rent seeking academics

Rent seeking academics? WTF are you even talking about?

 

[RogerB08]

Lost a lot of respect for Renzo after finding out he's a Bolsonoro supporter. It's especially disappointing knowing even a little about what his father Robson went through at the hands of an authoritarian regime in Brazil.

 

[FIghtxIQ]

Help me understand. Are you suggesting that because Marcus Aurelius was a brilliant philosopher, in part due to his combat experience, that his level of philosophy applies to jiu jitsu mats?

cmon man. Maybe the closest thing we have to a true martial arts philosopher in Bjj is Danaher. Other than that, the sport is mostly comprised of newbs looking to learn self defense and/or getting in shape. There is not as much philosophy involved as you might hope.

even the top level guys are half focused on surfing, competing, taking “açaí” and winning medals. They’re not a group of philosophers. Don’t be delusional.

No I'm not talking about jiu-jitsu mats, I've said that over and over again lol. I'm talking about combat/martial arts in general and using Marcus Aurelius as an example. His experience from ruling and war/combat is how he developed his philosophies. The same philosophies people still study in school today. He lived and experienced it, he didn't read books about it and spend his life in a class room. So I personally respect his philosophies more than people that just read about other peoples experiences in the comfort of a classroom and come up with their own theories and philosophies on assumptions instead of experience.

Yes I agree with Danaher, there are others like him in the martial arts world.

You are also short sighting people in the martial arts/combat world. There are intellectuals that also enjoy combat. History is filled with those type of people. Martial arts/military/combat sports is a big field as well, there is people from all over the world with different backgrounds and interests. It would be foolish to assume there are no intelligent minds associated with martial arts/military/combat sports.

 

[dmwalking]

No I'm not talking about jiu-jitsu mats, I've said that over and over again lol. I'm talking about combat/martial arts in general and using Marcus Aurelius as an example. His experience from ruling and war/combat is how he developed his philosophies. The same philosophies people still study in school today. He lived and experienced it, he didn't read books about it and spend his life in a class room. So I personally respect his philosophies more than people that just read about other peoples experiences in the comfort of a classroom and come up with their own theories and philosophies on assumptions instead of experience.

Yes I agree with Danaher, there are others like him in the martial arts world.

You are also short sighting people in the martial arts/combat world. There are intellectuals that also enjoy combat. History is filled with those type of people. Martial arts/military/combat sports is a big field as well, there is people from all over the world with different backgrounds and interests. It would be foolish to assume there are no intelligent minds associated with martial arts/military/combat sports.

philosophy as a result of combat experience is way more limited than philosophy based in books. By simple numbers there is more philosophy in books. It’s simple logic.

You might prefer one over the many others, but there are MANY others. Therefore, logically, there is not MORE philosophy on the mats than an Ivy League school as an Ivy League school will teach Stoicism AND the rest of the schools of thought.

Your preference doesn’t suddenly multiply how much philosophy can be found on the mats.


You overestimate how much philosophy can be gleaned from mat time. You overestimate how many intellectuals train.

 

[Normot]

I have a blackbelts in BJJ but got a C in intro to philosophy. Idk what that means but I didn't learn much philosophy on the mats. I know my brazilian instructors hate gays and love Jesus though. I don't really like buy into that philosophy.

 

[horc00]

Yet you still need military to protect the knowledge and the people. Knowledge by itself won't save you.

People just got accustomed to being protected from the shadows that they forget the importance of the people that fight on their behalf because they are not capable to do so themselves.

This quote from Skyfall James Bond fits this perfectly. Q the intellectual, James Bond military.
Q: Every now and then a trigger has to be pulled.
James Bond: Or not pulled. It's hard to know which in your pajamas.

And this is my reply.

You are confusing the importance of a soldier's role with the importance of his life.

 

[FIghtxIQ]

philosophy as a result of combat experience is way more limited than philosophy based in books. By simple numbers there is more philosophy in books. It’s simple logic.

You might prefer one over the many others, but there are MANY others. Therefore, logically, there is not MORE philosophy on the mats than an Ivy League school as an Ivy League school will teach Stoicism AND the rest of the schools of thought.

Your preference doesn’t suddenly multiply how much philosophy can be found on the mats.


You overestimate how much philosophy can be gleaned from mat time. You overestimate how many intellectuals train.

You are confusing schooling with knowledge and wisdom.

A simple Matt Serra quote can be used in the difference between books and experience, "You're an Expert Swimmer That Never Got Into a Pool'." So with that pretext how much about swimming do you actually really know?

Same can be said about love. You can read about love, analyze other people's relationships, but how much do you really know about love if you never have been in love? Are you just quoting others feelings? Stuff they said? None of it is from your own thoughts, own feelings, or own experience.

The philosophy from books is also from people that have experiences in life to form their philosophies and not just in a classroom reading about other people's experiences. The simple fact is reading a book about something is the not same as experiencing it. There will be a disconnect with that lack of knowledge and real wisdom from the experience.

I never stated there was more philosophy in a bjj mat, I simply said it's more than just being on the mat and I used other examples from history of people with combat backgrounds who's philosophy are still studied and taught to this day. You are too short sighted by focusing on philosophy on the mat vs philosophy in a class room. My argument is philosophy formed in real life vs philosophy formed in classroom from reading books.

This is where a lot of intellects are lost, they don't understand a lot of stuff that happens outside of a classroom. Where the real world actually exists and it's not so black and white as they read about it in their books.

I think you underestimate that there can be intellects that enjoy combat/martial arts.

A strong mind needs a strong body. Each is incomplete by itself. If you have a strong mind, but a weak body, you will always be in need of someone else's strength.

 

[FIGHTING TALK]

If Renzo Gracie fell from a tree would it make a sound?
The answer is yes. Because science.

 

[FIghtxIQ]

And this is my reply.

You are confusing intelligence with strength, your intellects are ruled by people stronger than them, not always smarter than them. It's been like this throughout history. Intellects don't have strength on their own. They are a strong mind, they need a strong body.

Examples of this can be found in business as well. Everyone thought they were smarter than Steve Jobs, yet Steve Jobs was the one in charge and their boss. The intellects who perceived themselves to be more intelligent than Steve Jobs, were taking orders and working for Steve Jobs.

Other examples are people with degrees working for people without one.

 

[horc00]

You are confusing intelligence with strength, your intellects are ruled by people stronger than them, not always smarter than them. It's been like this throughout history. Intellects don't have strength on their own. They are a strong mind, they need a strong body.

Examples of this can be found in business as well. Everyone thought they were smarter than Steve Jobs, yet Steve Jobs was the one in charge and their boss. The intellects who perceived themselves to be more intelligent than Steve Jobs, were taking orders and working for Steve Jobs.

Other examples are people with degrees working for people without one.

Steve Jobs? Really? You couldn't have picked a worse person to support your case.

Steve Jobs is an intellectual, first and foremost, with a type A personality. He's got more in common with a scientist than Renzo Gracie, and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common with the soldier protecting the scientist.

His wartime equivalence would be the military's head of the nuclear program. He is not a soldier. He can't bench teh 275. He can't survive if a "thug" or "common criminal" comes at him with a knife. But he sure as hell has more value than any MMA-trained soldier tasked to keep his ass alive.

 

[FIghtxIQ]

Steve Jobs? Really? You couldn't have picked a worse person to support your case.

Steve Jobs is an intellectual, first and foremost, with a type A personality. He's got more in common with a scientist than Renzo Gracie, and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common with the soldier protecting the scientist.

His wartime equivalence would be the military's head of the nuclear program. He is not a soldier. He can't bench teh 275. He can't survive if a "thug" or "common criminal" comes at him with a knife. But he sure as hell has more value than any MMA-trained soldier tasked to keep his ass alive.

Stop comparing Renzo, I'm not using him as my example. Reading is fundamental. Marcus Aurelius is who I have been using as my example, and it's not about just BJJ, it's about life in general.

Steve Jobs is a perfect example, just because he is an intellectual doesn't mean he isn't stronger than his peers. Doesn't always have to be physical strength. Everyone that worked for him always had issues because they all believed they were smarter than him. Yet they all worked for him and took his orders. It wasn't the other way around.

If you want an actual power vs intellect example you can use all the scientists that were forced to research and develop weapons for people stronger than them. Which is also something that happened throughout history so it's very easy to find examples.

It's not the intellectuals by themselves ruling or in control, they are an asset to the ones in control that have the real power.

Intellectuals by themselves are not winning wars, will not know how to handle conflict, and will not know how to rule.

 

[Peteyandjia]

It’s funny seeing people question Renzo’s ethics, as if that would make some kind of point here in this comparison. Take a look into the personal lives of famous philosophers throughout history, some of them were real scumbags. Thinking deeply about profound subjects doesn’t automatically mean you are therefore a great person.

Anyway, I met Renzo once, in a random situation having nothing to do with MMA, and nowhere near a dojo. For whatever it’s worth from one random schmuck: He was very nice to me in person. Of course, I didn’t ask Renzo what his thoughts were on Plato’s views of the benefits of a restrictive society, vs. Socrates’ emphasis on the freedom of the individual; I asked him what to do in a streetfight, if someone grabbed me by the head. To his credit, he showed me a pretty cool counter. Nice guy.

 

[horc00]

Stop comparing Renzo, I'm not using him as my example. Reading is fundamental. Marcus Aurelius is who I have been using as my example, and it's not about just BJJ, it's about life in general.

Stop comparing Renzo? This thread is literally about Renzo. Suddenly this isn't about Renzo, whose name is in the thread title, because... I'm right?

Steve Jobs is a perfect example, just because he is an intellectual doesn't mean he isn't stronger than his peers. Doesn't always have to be physical strength. Everyone that worked for him always had issues because they all believed they were smarter than him. Yet they all worked for him and took his orders. It wasn't the other way around.

If you want an actual power vs intellect example you can use all the scientists that were forced to research and develop weapons for people stronger than them. Which is also something that happened throughout history so it's very easy to find examples.

It's not the intellectuals by themselves ruling or in control, they are an asset to the ones in control that have the real power.

Renzo is claiming there's more philosophy in a martial arts gym than in an ivy league. My debate with @kenetics is that scientist (by extension a PhD holder) are of higher value to world leaders/governments/military than the normal soldier (by extension a trained fighter).

And that's where you chimed in.

We were comparing importance of individual intelligence vs physical strength, and suddenly you're talking about leaders vs followers.

You've gone off topic buddy.

Intellectuals by themselves are not winning wars, will not know how to handle conflict, and will not know how to rule.

And an MMA fighter could win a war and know how to rule?

 

[kenetics]

Stop comparing Renzo? This thread is literally about Renzo. Suddenly this isn't about Renzo, whose name is in the thread title, because... I'm right?



Renzo is claiming there's more philosophy in a martial arts gym than in an ivy league. My debate with @kenetics is that scientist (by extension a PhD holder) are of higher value to world leaders/governments/military than the normal soldier (by extension a trained fighter).

And that's where you chimed in.

We were comparing importance of individual intelligence vs physical strength, and suddenly you're talking about leaders vs followers.

You've gone off topic buddy.



And an MMA fighter could win a war and know how to rule?

The point is none of those people from our past tribes would've got here without the warriors of the tribe protecting them for generations after generations. Our scientist and doctors were weak physically. They would've not made it without protection.

I argue both are important. You trying to argue one is over the other.

 

[horc00]

The point is none of those people from our past tribes would've got here without the warriors of the tribe protecting them for generations after generations. Our scientist and doctors were weak physically. They would've not made it without protection.

I argue both are important. You trying to argue one is over the other.

Again, you're confusing the importance of the role vs the importance of the person filling that role.

 

[TerrorTimmy]

I always lol when martial artists think their knowledge is comparable with the one of PHDs...

How many hours of studying does it take to get a PhD? 10,000? 25,000?

How many hours do you think Renzo has spent on his craft? Certainly far more than PhD students ever spend on theirs.

To think that their knowledge is somehow less simply because it's not from a book is absurd. But please, explain how that PhD in 14th century English poetry is just so much more than 25+ years of experience training

 

[MescalineDreams]

View attachment 817441

Profound!

It's true in it's own way. Jiu jitsu and martial arts offer a different layer of understanding and experience to philosophy beyond just reading the words and studying the great minds on paper.