Is this a takedown @ 6:20?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by DFWGrappler, Jan 19, 2015.

  1. DFWGrappler

    DFWGrappler White Belt

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    This was in a finals match this past Saturday. I'm in the White rash guard competing against a black belt. As you can see from the video, after he ran for the first half of the match, I had his back for most of the second half of regulation before hitting a rolling truck to end the round 0-0... Then in sudden death overtime I go for a sacrifice, (Russian roll type) take down from his front head lock position and get the take down, north south then back take and the official called the 2 points for me said "stop" only to overturn the call because a friend of my competitor, also a black belt from brazil, whom was on the side lines told her to change her decision. Please let me know your thoughts on this. Thanks!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qtb7mqcRGI&feature=share
     
  2. AverageCanadian

    AverageCanadian White Belt

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    I'm just a lonely blue but I would consider that a take down in my opinion. It's essentially a reversal take down. Same thing imo as if I was being overly aggressive towards my opponent and they do a trip or a controlled hip toss just using my momentum.
     
  3. MrBen

    MrBen Orange Belt

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    Looking at the rules
    "All takedowns, guard passes, sweeps to side control/north-south control, knee on belly, mounts and
    back control must be held for 3 seconds in order for points to be awarded."

    In the video it looks like the takedown finishes at around 6:24 , at 6:26 he is on his side and on all fours by 6:27.

    Its close either way, but i think the right call was made assuming maintaining control means keeping him flat on his back.
     
  4. Nnedd

    Nnedd Centaur Booty Belt

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    I don't know. It seems she was counting your one hook back mount as a continuation of the take down, so in that sense you had 3 seconds of control.


    On the flip side, he did get to his knees, kind of breaking the chain.
     
  5. jeremyemilio

    jeremyemilio Silver Belt

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    I'm coming from a wrestling background, so take this for what it's worth, but I think the ref screwed it up for you, not by overturning her call, but by making the call prematurely.

    Sit through on the head pinch was beautiful, and in a wrestling match you probably get 3 for that, plus a pin. But from a grappling perspective, where being on your back can be a neutral position depending on how you're locked up, your opponent did still have the front headlock in place, so you're still looking for control. She's waiting for that to happen.

    Then your opponent does a nice job of getting from his back and sneaking his head through as he releases the head pinch. So now you've got his back and you're back looking for control. But from a different spot.

    Seems like the ref starts counting from your release of the head to determine a takedown as though you kept him on his back? But you didn't. Now you have his back and need to get hooks in. Which you're trying to do.

    Unfortunately, she stops it before you get the chance to finish the job, and then you end up being penalized for her premature stop.

    That's what it looks like happened to me, anyway.

    She basically screwed up because she was insecure about how she was calling it and listened to your corner. That's not their fault. It's their job to advocate for you. But it's also an understandable mistake.

    Reffing wrestling or grappling or jiu jitsu where you're the point man on the mat who has to make the call in real time is damned hard. They make mistakes. As far as reffing mistakes go, this wasn't a huge one on her part, but it did influence the match and put you at a disadvantage (or, to be more precise, took away an advantage from you).

    I do wonder why she started the match back at standing rather than resetting it as it was stopped, where you had a clear positional advantage.

    Sucks that you ended up losing the match, but in fairness, his takedown was much more clean than yours was.
     
  6. jeremyemilio

    jeremyemilio Silver Belt

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    ^^^

    Ha!

    Or if you'd rather save some time, this sums it up a lot more concisely than my post...
     
  7. Nnedd

    Nnedd Centaur Booty Belt

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    I have to say I didn't really enjoy the first half of that, though no fault of yours. That guy didn't seem like he wanted to be there, kind of like a Paulo Filho type thing.
     
  8. DFWGrappler

    DFWGrappler White Belt

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    Thank you sir!

    I would think that i had full control from 6:23(24) to 6:28 when she gave the points and said stop. Went from takedown, to north south to back control.

    To give her credit it was her first time officiating. Thanks for your response.


    Ya he wanted none of it first part. Odd
     
  9. Nnedd

    Nnedd Centaur Booty Belt

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    I thought you did too. He wasn't turtled for more than a split second. I saw that as you taking him down and then partially taking his back.

    I'm just offering the other side of things.
     
  10. DFWGrappler

    DFWGrappler White Belt

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    Your avatar gif cracks me up NNed LoL
     
  11. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    Objectively, that was a takedown, i wouldnt think twice about a promotion where someone can tell the ref to overturn a decision.
     
  12. Dirty Holt

    Dirty Holt Black Belt Professional Fighter

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    It was for sure a takedown 100%. You had NS for 3 seconds and he didnt turtle until 5 seconds of control, I counted.
     
  13. platfox

    platfox Silver Belt

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    What was the other corner's argument? Did the ref explain why she took back the two points?
     
  14. Scitney

    Scitney Blue Belt

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    Clear takedown. I don't know how it could be argued that it wasn't takedown.
     
  15. DFWGrappler

    DFWGrappler White Belt

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    Thanks...it was some what my fault for not calling over the organizers. Plus i entered free. So didnt cause to much caos over it! ;)

    Right on.. Thanks

    Nope other then gave us the IDK look. Lets restart

    Me either...just him, his buddies and one of the organizers saying it's not at this point. Everyone else including wrestlers are baffled. LoL
     
  16. DFWGrappler

    DFWGrappler White Belt

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    Found this in the IBJJF rule book. pay close attention to the second bullet point. "Hooks not need to be in place"

    POINT-SCORING POSITIONS*
    Takedown (2 points)
     
  17. Nnedd

    Nnedd Centaur Booty Belt

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    What did the guy in the suspenders think?

    That's what I want to know.
     
  18. MrBen

    MrBen Orange Belt

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  19. November

    November Yellow Belt

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    That is a clear takedown. You landed North South, held the position for a solid few seconds (no scrambling or anything), and then the guy rolled to his knees, but you stayed on top and behind him as well, so i don't know why they think that was not a takedown. This is why I hate bjj competition because of all the gray area when it comes to scoring. A lot of the positions for scoring are not clearly defined and there is no official set of rules. For example, if a guy shoots on me, and I sprawl and hit a go-behind, is that 2? I know some tourneys make you put hooks in, which is retarded because you are still on top. What difference does it make if the guy has his legs locked around my body or if I'm on top of him while he is on all fours, although I don't have hooks in? Fucking silly. Wrestling scoring is much better, as (literally) every position is clearly defined in the official rulebook, although there still are bad calls whee you don't know who should have got the points and who shouldn't have. That would have been considered a takedown in wrestling.
     
  20. DFWGrappler

    DFWGrappler White Belt

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    HAHAHA

    IDK but it was funny when my opponent walked the perimeter of the fence including that guy in suspenders! funny as shit :)
     

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