Is there such a thing as muscle memory for cardio ?

[ChickenBrother]

There also I depends with what level opponent one is matched.
-
For example, I compared fight where a guy with 6-0-0 pro record and If I'm correct, 145-5 ammy record had been matched with someone that had approx 15 ammy bouts and pro record 1-5-0.
For this more experienced guy it was easier than daily training session in gym. Relax mode.
Ofc, get any impressive ranking with rise with this fight he wasn't able, but to get pro record till 7-0-0 with this fight, yah, yes.
Boring to watch, 90/10 matchup if not more.
-
Another example, when debut guy with approx 20 ammy bouts and 5 exibition fights had been matched with a guy that had 3-2-0 pro record and approx 60 ammy bouts.
& There yeah, he get impressive for debut guy ranking points from debut fight but…. a bit too risky, guy really was exausted, yup, he had won in real all 3 last rounds , expect 1st round on cards, yeah, was better.
There yes, at least also to buy tickets for fans was worth it, but too risky.
-
Or if one is able to be good counter striker and is hard& precise hitting lad...
Relatively not much tired after fight guy when he beated out all shit from previously undefeadted guy, don't remember he had 5 or 6 wins before this.
He literally initially a bit counter punched with creating just small openings, then increased output in 2 nd round, pressed guy, after 3 rd round guy - opponent wasn't able to continue for 4 th round, too damaged, also already get 2 counts too.
Funny, possible undefeated prospect beated up by nobody with 1-0-0 record.
----------
I btw might post some KB/ boxing guys running results for 3000 meters and compare these with light athletics tournament for sport school ( light athletics specialised programme ) guy.

I'm definitely not saying running is "tougher" than combat sports lol. But if your sole focus is pushing your cardio system, in sports like running, rowing or cross country skiing, you can continuously keep yourself at lactate threshold vs. only intermittently spiking above it in combat sports.

Yeah, there former foresters and hunters are suitable : this at least was in WW1, WW2 times, they knew how to hide properly in forest etc to hunt animals, so were suitable to hide from people too ( observation etc ). In WW2 had to fight not only large army units but a lot of partisan units and recon/ diversion units too …. I this about WW2 in Europe.
This for example and plenty of stuff like this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_during_World_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_partisans
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Žižka_partisan_brigade
Plus organised recoinscance / diversion units, usually dropped from airplanes in nazi occupied territories.

As a guy who served, I have zero problems acknowledging that the militaries on all sides had it WAY harder in WW II and earlier. But that's true in every walk of life, not just the military - there's different kinds of headaches now but as far as physical hardship, the average guy in the 40's was a tough bastard. Now the average guy drinks soy milk and complains when his internet goes out.

 

[SandisLL]

Yeah, now it is low physical workload era: companies can boost laptop sales with ads": our new laptop wieght 1, 8 kg!, previous model had weight 2kg!. Some guys from offices told, wow, these old times, when heavy and clumsy 4 kg laptops were common: tough times…...
---
Of course, in older times before cars were used more commonly, main transportation were with horses, railroad ( fueled with coal and wood ) etc.
We even can compare old jeeps and trucks without servo assisted steering, to drive these required considerably more physical efforts than to drive modern truck or jeep.
Rural business too now in plenty of places is modernized long ago, some owners, if they are young generation might not know how to get milk from cow if Machines doesn't work or what to do, if they need to finish a cow or pig, if slaughtery is shut down. Cos for these jobs they have personnel and external services ( slaughteries ).
--------
Ofc there are a lot of problems: to get what doesn't work and not rarerly repair a jeep from 70 ies and early 80 ies : not a big problem.
With modern cars that are full with Electronics and equiped with complicated fuel injection systems and walve systems it not rarerly requires diagnostic equipment and software ( car diagnostic soft is expensive stuff ).
To disassamble engine manufactured in 70 ies in rural farm : not much problems.
To do this with modern stuff: let's see what tools we do have etc.
--
Banks too prefer that you do payments online, they with this are able to reduce number of branches and personnel.
With modern COVID, LOL, I get bills electronically, cos they don't want to see me in offices and before COVID they didn't wished to waste even paper, some from them just offered: we will send you bills on paper, but then extra price for paper will be added….
Now, with lockdown we are even more helpless without internet.

 

[MatterOverMind]

As far as ‘lung memory’, TS, i dont have an answer, other than mentally, guys who have gotten in extremely good shape KNOW how hard they CAN dig.

I am constantly shaking my head at my pussy friends who think they are tired. They arent pussies in other avenues of life, I am in many in fact. My brain or body or something seems to know that it wont kill me, and you get a lust and positivity for that deep dig.

Just to be clear, im not a high end anything. Most people dont ever find out how hard they can push, is all.

Those are almost exactly my thoughts on strength training.

 

[SandisLL]

There even difference between casual daily physical effort required to use these
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAZ-69
1953-1972
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAZ-64
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZIS-5_(truck)
Yeah, also for cilivlians.
If compare with these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_CR-V
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_Discovery_Sport
etc like cars.

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

That was my fastest 2-mile, 18 yo @ 5' 9" 145 lbs after exactly 3 years training starting from sedentary 15 yo who only read books and played video games. But the fastest I've ever been was probably the year earlier when I weighed 130 lbs as a 17 yo high school cross-country runner.

Because I lifted weights, I got up to 170 lbs a few years later and at that weight, best I could do was just under 12 min. I was always top 5 fastest out of ~130 soldiers in every company I was in, but the faster guys were always lighter than me.

im at about 13 minutes right now, but my miles are split with 30 clean and jerks with 70lb dumbbells in between. i record my time for the whole workout, so im going really hard on those lifts. not sure if it helps me or hurts me regarding running time. ill have to hit the track for 8 laps one of these days. i guess the point is that ya, its hard to run as well once you start putting on some size.

ive tried for years to make a workout/test that measured strength and conditioning equally, so those big lads could feel good about their 8 minute miles.
one fun one was to convert your mile time to seconds, and subtract your best clean and jerk done on the same day, lbs as seconds.
5:30 mile would be 330. clean and jerk 180, you score a 150. the closer to zero the better.

 

[ChickenBrother]

im at about 13 minutes right now, but my miles are split with 30 clean and jerks with 70lb dumbbells in between. i record my time for the whole workout, so im going really hard on those lifts. not sure if it helps me or hurts me regarding running time. ill have to hit the track for 8 laps one of these days. i guess the point is that ya, its hard to run as well once you start putting on some size.

ive tried for years to make a workout/test that measured strength and conditioning equally, so those big lads could feel good about their 8 minute miles.
one fun one was to convert your mile time to seconds, and subtract your best clean and jerk done on the same day, lbs as seconds.
5:30 mile would be 330. clean and jerk 180, you score a 150. the closer to zero the better.

13 min two mile if you're doing clean and jerks to failure in the middle is really good. What are your split times? I found that any lift that gives me a pump in lower back like cleans or DL completely tanks my run times for 24 hours and most especially if I run immediately after.

Re. size-neutral fitness metric, I think the closest is rowing ergometer. Bigger guys are moving more weight and hence doing more mechanical work, but will also gas faster than smaller guys. Barring that, sprint times such as 40m seem to be pretty equal opportunity by size, although fast twitch muscle seems to be largely genetic.

What I do know beyond any doubt is that weight makes a huge difference in distance running. When I used to run 5Ks pretty regularly, a weight gain of 5 or 10 lbs from weight lifting would slow me down by maybe 10 to 15 seconds/mile after the first mile.

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

13 min two mile if you're doing clean and jerks to failure in the middle is really good. What are your split times? I found that any lift that gives me a pump in lower back like cleans or DL completely tanks my run times for 24 hours and most especially if I run immediately after.

Re. size-neutral fitness metric, I think the closest is rowing ergometer. Bigger guys are moving more weight and hence doing more mechanical work, but will also gas faster than smaller guys. Barring that, sprint times such as 40m seem to be pretty equal opportunity by size, although fast twitch muscle seems to be largely genetic.

What I do know beyond any doubt is that weight makes a huge difference in distance running. When I used to run 5Ks pretty regularly, a weight gain of 5 or 10 lbs from weight lifting would slow me down by maybe 10 to 15 seconds/mile after the first mile.

my splits are actually even, but this is due to how i run it all. The second mile is a horrible grind where i try to move as fast as i can with my jacked heart rate and depleted legs. The first mile is a nice warmup into the lifts.

ya, that rower is the shit. it does shit tall people a lot, and the under 165lb class online numbers are much worse until you get to a 5k and up. not saying that is a horrible thing, as i think that machine balances power and endurance very well.

it has no push movement for the arms was the only thing keeping it from being perfect to me.

 

[ChickenBrother]

my splits are actually even, but this is due to how i run it all. The second mile is a horrible grind where i try to move as fast as i can with my jacked heart rate and depleted legs. The first mile is a nice warmup into the lifts.

ya, that rower is the shit. it does shit tall people a lot, and the under 165lb class online numbers are much worse until you get to a 5k and up. not saying that is a horrible thing, as i think that machine balances power and endurance very well.

it has no push movement for the arms was the only thing keeping it from being perfect to me.

If you can do 6:30 min miles back to back, with the second while winded and pumped from cleans, that is really fast. I'd wager you could do 12:30 or better if you just got on a track and gutted it out for 8 laps.

I'm still trying to figure out my lockdown exercise routine. I had a great thing going with 3x5 barbell powerlifting sets twice a week and BJJ 3 times/week with active recovery runs when I felt like it. I'm now glad I have my squat rack in the basement but runs aren't replacing what I was getting from BJJ. Something like a rower would be ideal right now, as it's a great mix of full body explosion and cardio just like grappling.

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

If you can do 6:30 min miles back to back, with the second while winded and pumped from cleans, that is really fast. I'd wager you could do 12:30 or better if you just got on a track and gutted it out for 8 laps.

I'm still trying to figure out my lockdown exercise routine. I had a great thing going with 3x5 barbell powerlifting sets twice a week and BJJ 3 times/week with active recovery runs when I felt like it. I'm now glad I have my squat rack in the basement but runs aren't replacing what I was getting from BJJ. Something like a rower would be ideal right now, as it's a great mix of full body explosion and cardio just like grappling.

ya, it is really, really hard to replace the constant armwork of grappling. i went back to a once a week nogi two winters ago, after fifteen years away, wherein i got a lot stronger and cleaned my life up and got better on any endurance metric.
i felt great, but my arms turned to rubber. oh, also my closed guard was totally useless.... you just dont make that movement in any other avenue of life, lol.

i guess that is maybe why guys were using the rope in each hand thing a few years ago.

id be looking at climbing, rope, rock, anything. and holds, even just holding your bar for a long time. or farmers walks if you have bells of any kind. maybe even go grab a hammer and drive some nails. all that construction type stuff is grip heavy and brutal on shoulders if its overhead. drive some screws in with an actual manual screwdriver. Last time i had to dig a hole with a shovel my hands and forearms were failing me.

i started making sure to do a long, to failure, set of full rom pushups after i learned my weaknesses in grappling. anything that is a lactic, constant movement for arms. kayaking, paddling, rowing, swimming (except breathing limits how hard you can give it with swimming.... although that has benefits for jujitsu id say)

all that said - grappling with takedowns is ...... i mean, that is all that is needed to train everything, imo.

 

[ChickenBrother]

ya, it is really, really hard to replace the constant armwork of grappling. i went back to a once a week nogi two winters ago, after fifteen years away, wherein i got a lot stronger and cleaned my life up and got better on any endurance metric.
i felt great, but my arms turned to rubber. oh, also my closed guard was totally useless.... you just dont make that movement in any other avenue of life, lol.

i guess that is maybe why guys were using the rope in each hand thing a few years ago.

id be looking at climbing, rope, rock, anything. and holds, even just holding your bar for a long time. or farmers walks if you have bells of any kind. maybe even go grab a hammer and drive some nails. all that construction type stuff is grip heavy and brutal on shoulders if its overhead. drive some screws in with an actual manual screwdriver. Last time i had to dig a hole with a shovel my hands and forearms were failing me.

i started making sure to do a long, to failure, set of full rom pushups after i learned my weaknesses in grappling. anything that is a lactic, constant movement for arms. kayaking, paddling, rowing, swimming (except breathing limits how hard you can give it with swimming.... although that has benefits for jujitsu id say)

all that said - grappling with takedowns is ...... i mean, that is all that is needed to train everything, imo.

I think the best arm movement exercise I've come across is a hand crank machine "arm bicycle." One of the gyms I used to go to had one, and it's great as either a warm up or work out. Ropes come close but not as good IMO. I used to do 6 min as a warm up before barbell training, switching directions every 30 sec and you get a definite pump if you set the resistance high enough. Because it's no impact, your shoulders and elbows get good and loose and warm. I for sure had less shoulder pain when I was doing those, and have had more in the ~5 years since I haven't had access to that machine.

Re. grappling as a full body workout starting from standing, yeah I agree. Particularly no gi and doing collar tie ups with head snaps, your neck and back get a lot stronger. Unfortunately in BJJ, starting from knees misses that part and IME creates an imbalance that requires some kind of extension exercise like DL or rowing to correct.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

ya, it is really, really hard to replace the constant armwork of grappling. i went back to a once a week nogi two winters ago, after fifteen years away, wherein i got a lot stronger and cleaned my life up and got better on any endurance metric.
i felt great, but my arms turned to rubber. oh, also my closed guard was totally useless.... you just dont make that movement in any other avenue of life, lol.

i guess that is maybe why guys were using the rope in each hand thing a few years ago.

id be looking at climbing, rope, rock, anything. and holds, even just holding your bar for a long time. or farmers walks if you have bells of any kind. maybe even go grab a hammer and drive some nails. all that construction type stuff is grip heavy and brutal on shoulders if its overhead. drive some screws in with an actual manual screwdriver. Last time i had to dig a hole with a shovel my hands and forearms were failing me.

i started making sure to do a long, to failure, set of full rom pushups after i learned my weaknesses in grappling. anything that is a lactic, constant movement for arms. kayaking, paddling, rowing, swimming (except breathing limits how hard you can give it with swimming.... although that has benefits for jujitsu id say)

all that said - grappling with takedowns is ...... i mean, that is all that is needed to train everything, imo.

Complexes bro
Row
Clean
Squat
Press
RDL/Good morning
Curl
Pushup

All done without putting the bar down.
I go by time so 3-5 minutes but the weight is really light. But some people go heavy and just do one superset at a time

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

I think the best arm movement exercise I've come across is a hand crank machine "arm bicycle." One of the gyms I used to go to had one, and it's great as either a warm up or work out. Ropes come close but not as good IMO. I used to do 6 min as a warm up before barbell training, switching directions every 30 sec and you get a definite pump if you set the resistance high enough. Because it's no impact, your shoulders and elbows get good and loose and warm. I for sure had less shoulder pain when I was doing those, and have had more in the ~5 years since I haven't had access to that machine.

Re. grappling as a full body workout starting from standing, yeah I agree. Particularly no gi and doing collar tie ups with head snaps, your neck and back get a lot stronger. Unfortunately in BJJ, starting from knees misses that part and IME creates an imbalance that requires some kind of extension exercise like DL or rowing to correct.

i always felt bjj classes ive been to just didnt train takedowns enough.
you even see it in the big leagues.

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

Complexes bro
Row
Clean
Squat
Press
RDL/Good morning
Curl
Pushup

All done without putting the bar down.
I go by time so 3-5 minutes but the weight is really light. But some people go heavy and just do one superset at a time

thats basically how i lift, using rocks, a fatbar and dumbbells.
but, its not quite the same.



Im serious about driving screws into wood you motherfuckers! lol

 

[ChickenBrother]

i always felt bjj classes ive been to just didnt train takedowns enough.
you even see it in the big leagues.

Yeah the place I've been training for past 3 years is the same, and it's BJJ for MMA with one of the coaches in the UFC. They only do one TD class a week on no gi day, which is more than most places. It also becomes a self-perpetuating problem because you end up with guys that never learn how to defend or land and so you can never really start rolls from feet without guys getting hurt.

thats basically how i lift, using rocks, a fatbar and dumbbells.
but, its not quite the same.



Im serious about driving screws into wood you motherfuckers! lol

Lol when I was a kid I remember my dad (who grew up on a farm) getting fed up with me one time and took me to the garage. He was like, pound these carpentry nails into this piece of wood and don't come back into the house until you've done 500 nails flush. We lived in the burbs but he would sometimes make me dig trenches and other shit like that so I understood manual labor. Just last weekend the wife and I shoveled an entire dump truck load (20 cubic yards) of mulch around our house and damn if that's not a workout I don't know what is.

Worrying which machine gives you the best workout is hilarious when you consider how most people lived less than 100 years ago. First world problems.

 

[nogibjjgear]

In my experience no

Cardio goes to shit fast if i dont do it and takes time to come back atleast for me

Same here. It feels like im starting from zero when i come back to it after some time.

 

[aus101]

Yes there is. For example if you attain the ability to perform double unders skipping you could not skip for months and still be able to perform them. It doesn’t completely go away and comes back far quicker than it takes to gain it, like with strength.

 

[aus101]

13 min two mile if you're doing clean and jerks to failure in the middle is really good. What are your split times? I found that any lift that gives me a pump in lower back like cleans or DL completely tanks my run times for 24 hours and most especially if I run immediately after.

Re. size-neutral fitness metric, I think the closest is rowing ergometer. Bigger guys are moving more weight and hence doing more mechanical work, but will also gas faster than smaller guys. Barring that, sprint times such as 40m seem to be pretty equal opportunity by size, although fast twitch muscle seems to be largely genetic.

What I do know beyond any doubt is that weight makes a huge difference in distance running. When I used to run 5Ks pretty regularly, a weight gain of 5 or 10 lbs from weight lifting would slow me down by maybe 10 to 15 seconds/mile after the first mile.

The erg gives taller and heavier athletes an advantage, it’s not the best determiner of cardio at all (as the longer your stroke the longer you are on the accelerator). The resistance is also usually kept at a standard that best mimics the resistance of water (so big guys aren’t really moving more weight, although their extra weight means they will be more powerful than lighter athletes and producing more force). They’re not even carrying extra weight though because on a erg you are seated. On the water it balances out as you actually have to carry your weight but on the erg taller and heavier is an advantage (it is on the water too generally).

Hence their being a lightweight category in rowing. Because of the advantages of being tall (a long stroke) even the LW’s, who weigh in just before their race at 155, are almost all 6’+.

 

[ChickenBrother]

The erg gives taller and heavier athletes an advantage, it’s not the best determiner of cardio at all (as the longer your stroke the longer you are on the accelerator). The resistance is also usually kept at a standard that best mimics the resistance of water (so big guys aren’t really moving more weight, although their extra weight means they will be more powerful than lighter athletes and producing more force). They’re not even carrying extra weight though because on a erg you are seated. On the water it balances out as you actually have to carry your weight but on the erg taller and heavier is an advantage (it is on the water too generally).

Hence their being a lightweight category in rowing. Because of the advantages of being tall (a long stroke) even the LW’s, who weigh in just before their race at 155, are almost all 6’+.

I was aware that size is an advantage in rowing, but I had thought it was less of a factor than in running (weight is generally a disadvantage), particularly in distances over a mile. But I have a running background and only minimal rowing experience - occasionally paddling around on rented kayaks and canoes and having worked out on rowing machine against friends of different sizes for bragging rights. For casuals like myself and my buddies (randoms who have terrible technique), I had thought it was a decent size-neutral workout but I could be wrong.

In your opinion, what is the best exercise to establish size-neutral cardio metric for casuals that don't compete in that discipline?

 

[aus101]

I was aware that size is an advantage in rowing, but I had thought it was less of a factor than in running (weight is generally a disadvantage), particularly in distances over a mile. But I have a running background and only minimal rowing experience - occasionally paddling around on rented kayaks and canoes and having worked out on rowing machine against friends of different sizes for bragging rights. For casuals like myself and my buddies (randoms who have terrible technique), I had thought it was a decent size-neutral workout but I could be wrong.

In your opinion, what is the best exercise to establish size-neutral cardio metric for casuals that don't compete in that discipline?

Heart rate monitored heat shock tests (like in a sauna). Most cardio tests are performed running because the technique is known by all but that favours certain frames, muscle fibre ratio types, low body weights etc. Rowing is quite technical and favours certain frames (like swimming).

Heart rate monitored walks would be good (low technique requirement) but again favours the lighter athlete (the 200 pounder carrying nearly 50 pounds more than a 155 pounder).

 

[ChickenBrother]

Heart rate monitored heat shock tests (like in a sauna). Most cardio tests are performed running because the technique is known by all but that favours certain frames, muscle fibre ratio types, low body weights etc. Rowing is quite technical and favours certain frames (like swimming).

Heart rate monitored walks would be good (low technique requirement) but again favours the lighter athlete (the 200 pounder carrying nearly 50 pounds more than a 155 pounder).

Heart rate response to temperature shocks is interesting - hadn't considered that and it's independent of activity technique.

Impact of weight on any activity on your feet is why I had discounted running or walking, and why I had thought rowing was a decent proxy because like swimming, you're not having to support your whole weight. In principle I'd have thought swimming would be the best size-neutral exercise metric but there's too much variance in technique. Because rowing is not as common in the U.S., I thought it likely that otherwise fit casuals would have comparably terrible technique (like me and my buddies).

Re. temperature shocks, I'd be interested in the impact of genetics and individual acclimatization on heat (or cold) tolerance among folks with say, identical resting HR. Serving in the military in the middle east, it was well over 100 degrees F in the summer and anecdotally I think everyone was equally miserable when we were out and about. But in Saudi Arabia I saw bedouins living out in the desert with no AC as they have for generations. It's one thing to go out during the day in that kind of heat with an air conditioned living area to go back to at night, but quite another to live and sleep in that kind of heat continuously.

The coldest outdoor environment I served in was arctic training in Norway when it averaged about 25 degrees F but much colder at night. In that environment the soldiers who were the most miserable and bundled up were the dark skinned black guys. It was almost hilarious how much difference there was in cold tolerance. But the best adapted guys were the British ghurkas we were training with. Those guys could take the cold like no one else and I suppose growing up in the Himalayas made it a cake walk for them.

But in both temperature extremes I don't think you can compare soft western guys who grew up with HVAC on equal footing with roughnecks who grew up in those conditions.