Is there "rolling" or any form of resistance in aikido

[RTD1]

*Bruce Banner.

I grew up during the 1980's, when in the Hulk TV Show it was David Banner. In the original comic it was Bruce, then they changed it to David because Bruce was seen as a gay name (100% serious, not trolling, look it up) but now that that sort of thing is more acceptable these days they changed it back to Bruce in the movies. It will always be David to me though because that's what I remember as a kid.

 

[QingTian]

Read up on Ueshiba last night. Apparently he was a real nutjob. Early on he hooked up with a cult sect that advertised its leader as a reborn Genghis Khan, and they went over to Mongolia to try to carve an empire. Later on he became more "spiritual" in his Aikido, ie more interested in making his own cult. That said, I don't doubt he had actual skill. Some of the early Judoka who joined him were said to be real hard asses. But, that was early Aikido. It's said later followers took on the cult route more. Also, Takeda who taught him aikijutsu later was said to be angry that Ueshiba's art was not what he taught him.

Well, that about explains it all.

tl;dr: Aikido started out effective but got overtaken by the wackos.

 

[Nnedd]

I grew up during the 1980's, when in the Hulk TV Show it was David Banner. In the original comic it was Bruce, then they changed it to David because Bruce was seen as a gay name (100% serious, not trolling, look it up) but now that that sort of thing is more acceptable these days they changed it back to Bruce in the movies. It will always be David to me though because that's what I remember as a kid.

Holy crap you are right. I watched the show growing up, and thinking back on it, I remember they did call him David.

Nuts.

 

[EGDM]

tl;dr: Aikido started out effective but got overtaken by the wackos.

I don't think that's fair. Aikido was clearly founded by a wacko, not overtaken. He started off as a delusional hardass and ended up as a pseudo-religious cult leader. Having seen the entire art and organization from the inside, it's blatantly obvious that no one ever took a serious step back and said "Shit, what are we really doing here?"

(There are a couple exceptions. Kazuo Chiba and Mitsunari Kanai often lamented the general pussification of Aikido relative to the old days. However, they didn't feel it was their place to enforce martial standards at the cost of inclusivity since it was counter to Ueshiba's vision, and so 40 years later we're left with dancing in skirts. I have no idea what the art would look like if they'd had free reign. Kanai in particular loved Judo, so we'd probably have seen the inclusion of randori and newaza.)

 

[GuardOfDoom]

There are two conversations here:

1. Is there any 'live' sparring or sparring with 'resistance'?

No, not really in the sense that most people would think of. There is something called 'randori' but the quality and intensity of randori really depends on the individuals involved. Sometimes it's like walking away from 3 kittens, other times it's like fending off 3 pit bulls.

The reason why aikido practices with no resistance is for you to learn how to feel the balance points. It's hard to feel those fine details when your uke is a stiff board. When someone is pulling or pushing hard, it will be difficult to manipulate them. But what about that small point where there is no pulling or pushing tension? You can move them.

You know when you are trying to move the arm across your body when locking up a triangle? You'll lift your hips up, then as you drop your hips, you can easily push their arm across in the hole you've created. Same idea.

2. Is Aikido a superior/practical grappling art?

As a former practitioner I would also say no. A combination of Wrestling/Judo & BJJ would be my recommendation for building up a practical set of effective skills quickly.

However, there is a point that is getting glossed over:

Does Aikido have any thing useful that could be practical in a self-defense scenario, or could transfer over to other arts?

Yes, definitely. My experience has been that the individual techniques have been less influential than the principles than govern them. The footwork that you learn is also useful. The concepts of staying chest-to-chest, your power coming from your center (hara) and moving your hara (basically CoG) to move/manipulate your opponent are applicable in most other grappling arts.

The timing to execute imiri and tendon come in handy in BJJ and if you've ever slipped a punch and clinched up, that's the same idea. Using footwork to enter/escape your opponent's space and step off their line of attack while keeping my line of attack. Have you ever kept just out of range of your opponent's range, then timed a step-in jab to disrupt their timing to start your own combination? That's striking 101 all day and that's in Aikido.

In fact, people often criticize aikido as being a terrible grappling art. It's definitely not a grappling art that should be approached the same way other grappling arts are approached. Aikido is first and foremost, evasive. It is entirely defensive, and you won't get anywhere trying to apply aikido techniques on a non-offensive person.

But aikido also has applications in striking through footwork. One of my aikido instructors brought up striking one day. He said, "striking is easy, it's getting into the right position to strike that is difficult. If you imiri here, look at the easy targets I have. I don't need to teach you how to punch. I need to teach you how to get there".

I think that holds true and I can use my footwork to close the distance to set up takedowns. If I can get close enough to take you down, I'm close enough to punch you.

Another application is weapons retention. Even though Aikido is (supposedly) originally meant for defending against multiple armed attackers, it actually seems to have merit as a weapon retention system according to some people's experiences. I'm referring to long guns and handguns here, but staffs and knives also come into play here. Think about it, if someone is armed with a handgun or knife, do you want to control his wrist or his body? The wrist is obviously the best control point, which just so happens is the starting point of Aikido's wrist locks. This is considered completely speculative by most traditional aikido practitioners, but I think it has merit.

One thing that's really important to keep in mind, in my experience people have referred to Aikido as a graduate school or 'finishing school' or martial arts. You will gain much more from it if you already have significant training in another art (historically judo and karate, but I think other arts can learn something from it too).

 

[SummerStriker]

I don't think that's fair. Aikido was clearly founded by a wacko, not overtaken. He started off as a delusional hardass and ended up as a pseudo-religious cult leader. Having seen the entire art and organization from the inside, it's blatantly obvious that no one ever took a serious step back and said "Shit, what are we really doing here?"

(There are a couple exceptions. Kazuo Chiba and Mitsunari Kanai often lamented the general pussification of Aikido relative to the old days. However, they didn't feel it was their place to enforce martial standards at the cost of inclusivity since it was counter to Ueshiba's vision, and so 40 years later we're left with dancing in skirts. I have no idea what the art would look like if they'd had free reign. Kanai in particular loved Judo, so we'd probably have seen the inclusion of randori and newaza.)

I think a lot of people would like an art with like, 40 Akido partner dances, 10 Judo Throws, and lots of Ground Fighting, with Randori not completing throws roughly but with controlled falls and off balancing, knife defense techniques and a sword Kata.

That would be a bad ass martial art. People would eat that shit up.

 

[Joe Dwarf]

But aikido also has applications in striking through footwork. One of my aikido instructors brought up striking one day. He said, "striking is easy, it's getting into the right position to strike that is difficult. If you imiri here, look at the easy targets I have. I don't need to teach you how to punch. I need to teach you how to get there".

Spoken like a guy who's never learned to throw a punch, and therefore can't teach it.

In any martial art, there's the waza and there's the entry that makes the waza possible. You still have to be able to execute the waza. You don't get to say, "well, he's now open for the punch/throw/cut, the rest is obvious."

 

[QingTian]

I don't think that's fair. Aikido was clearly founded by a wacko, not overtaken. He started off as a delusional hardass and ended up as a pseudo-religious cult leader. Having seen the entire art and organization from the inside, it's blatantly obvious that no one ever took a serious step back and said "Shit, what are we really doing here?"

(There are a couple exceptions. Kazuo Chiba and Mitsunari Kanai often lamented the general pussification of Aikido relative to the old days. However, they didn't feel it was their place to enforce martial standards at the cost of inclusivity since it was counter to Ueshiba's vision, and so 40 years later we're left with dancing in skirts. I have no idea what the art would look like if they'd had free reign. Kanai in particular loved Judo, so we'd probably have seen the inclusion of randori and newaza.)

I'm pretty sure effective Aikido can be reconstructed if it's been lost. The techniques in themselves are self explanatory (at least to me). You just need to have had the training methods to get there. Like, you know, set some high dan Judoka to the task.

But, anyway, do tell some stories from the inside!

 

[QingTian]

Spoken like a guy who's never learned to throw a punch, and therefore can't teach it.

In any martial art, there's the waza and there's the entry that makes the waza possible. You still have to be able to execute the waza. You don't get to say, "well, he's now open for the punch/throw/cut, the rest is obvious."

While possible and even probable he hasn't learned to punch, what he says is still true. The hardest part is the application, as we know. Learning the basic technique is only part of the battle.

In Judo you spend all your kyu grades just learning the basic technique. By shodan you have a handful you can demonstrate decently. Most shodan rely on a considerable amount of force to get their throws.

Nowadays I try to concentrate on the entry. When I do a good osoto entry I do not even need to sweep to get the throw. Trying to master other throws that way too.

 

[QingTian]

The reason why aikido practices with no resistance is for you to learn how to feel the balance points. It's hard to feel those fine details when your uke is a stiff board. When someone is pulling or pushing hard, it will be difficult to manipulate them. But what about that small point where there is no pulling or pushing tension? You can move them.

One thing that's really important to keep in mind, in my experience people have referred to Aikido as a graduate school or 'finishing school' or martial arts. You will gain much more from it if you already have significant training in another art (historically judo and karate, but I think other arts can learn something from it too).

I think you've made some fine points in your post. There is a certain irony though that you need to do other arts first, and it's the no resistance part. Learning about balance is more than just feeling the balance, but how to manipulate uke to breaking the balance. If uke is a stiff board, either do a technique that works in that case, or break him down. That is a skill you never see in Aikido demos. I think practitioners get over reliant on joint manipulation to make their moves effective.

 

[Joe Dwarf]

While possible and even probable he hasn't learned to punch, what he says is still true. The hardest part is the application, as we know. Learning the basic technique is only part of the battle.

I agree with you, but that's not what he said. He said the punch was easy and need not be taught. The application may be more difficult but that doesn't mean there is no effort in learning the technique. Boxers don't spend a bunch of time with the heavy bag for nothing. Judoka don't do uchikomi for nothing.

 

[GuardOfDoom]

I think you've made some fine points in your post. There is a certain irony though that you need to do other arts first, and it's the no resistance part. Learning about balance is more than just feeling the balance, but how to manipulate uke to breaking the balance. If uke is a stiff board, either do a technique that works in that case, or break him down. That is a skill you never see in Aikido demos. I think practitioners get over reliant on joint manipulation to make their moves effective.

Yeah, there is definitely a certain irony to it, especially since Aikido is so commonly suggested to novices (and generally unathletic people too). You're right, manipulating uke's balance an important part of the process and learning how to break someone's balance forcibly is something that judo is better at teaching at, imo.

I said earlier that Aikido is evasive in nature. You use that evasiveness to get lure your attacker into overcommitting (or unbalancing themselves) then use your timing to take advantage of that.

Another principle that I find myself using in BJJ is the idea of connection. I can reach out and grab my opponent to know where they are and how they are moving. But if they reach out and grab me, I can also figure out where they are and how they are moving. Connection is connection, and even though they might have more direct control, you can control the connection as well.

I think a lot of people focus on the wrong parts of Aikido, which is the handwork, when the true value of Aikido comes from learning how to move with your hara and footwork.

We also did a randori type drill in my BJJ class where 2 people chased down 1 guy and dragged him back to the far side. The solo guy only had to stop the takedowns and prevent getting dragged away. Believe it or not, as ridiculous of a situation as you might see that as, even a little randori experience was helpful in not getting taken down (and more importantly, I was able to stay on my feet and if I were not confined to the area of the mats I could just have walked away).

Now arguably you could say "go train track & field if you want to run". But knowing how to line up your attackers, splitting them up and using my footwork to force them into each other's paths is more than just turning and running. I definitely had a couple easy takedowns just by moving them around them.

People often think it's the joint manipulation that is the essence of the technique but it's not. The essence of the technique is connecting yourself to them and moving your hara around to create the joint lock. The joint lock is the result of the movement. Once the joint lock is established, then you can control the uke.

I agree with you, but that's not what he said. He said the punch was easy and need not be taught. The application may be more difficult but that doesn't mean there is no effort in learning the technique. Boxers don't spend a bunch of time with the heavy bag for nothing. Judoka don't do uchikomi for nothing.

What you're saying is true. I don't think he meant to underplay the importance of learning proper punching technique. But if you weren't studying any striking at all, you could still deliver a decent elbow or punch to their face if you step off their line of attack and step in at a 45 degree angle.

You could teach someone a decent strike fairly quickly. Teaching someone the proper footwork to get those angles is a much harder skill to teach and learn imo. Where technique really shines is when you're able to use your footwork to not only enter in smoothly and quickly, but also to generate power for your strikes.

 

[QingTian]

People often think it's the joint manipulation that is the essence of the technique but it's not. The essence of the technique is connecting yourself to them and moving your hara around to create the joint lock. The joint lock is the result of the movement. Once the joint lock is established, then you can control the uke.

Agree about the hara part. It is fundamental to many Judo techniques also. In fact I wish it were more explicitly taught in Judo, but it is often left up to learning by feel.

Got any good YouTube examples of Aikido hara and footwork?

What I meant was exactly what you said though. The joint part hides a lot of the ineffectiveness from errors to a learner.

 

[GuardOfDoom]

Agree about the hara part. It is fundamental to many Judo techniques also. In fact I wish it were more explicitly taught in Judo, but it is often left up to learning by feel.

Got any good YouTube examples of Aikido hara and footwork?

What I meant was exactly what you said though. The joint part hides a lot of the ineffectiveness from errors to a learner.

Yes, sometimes it can only really be learned by feeling, much like any martial art. A jab with the body behind it feels totally different than a jab with the arm.

And we can't totally dismiss the role of the handwork either, it's just that for me the footwork is the meat of the technique. You use your footwork to absorb their energy and change the distance to create or remove tension in their arm (or chain). Once the tension is removed, you can twist, effectively locking the links, and you can push on the stick you've created. Or, you can keep twisting the links to twist them down. Or you can take advantage of the little bit of leverage you've created, to break their posture/balance down more.

I don't have any specific videos in mind to share, but I did find these two videos:

The first is a decent description of hara and associated principles. The second is a demo by Mori Shihan which has a lot of good movement. It's a little flashy looking and they do the usual "look how a much smaller man can so absolutely control a larger man" bit that is typical of Aikido demos. But what you can see clearly is how Mori Shihan's movements sets up his techniques and finishes. He's adhering to the principles of keeping your chest facing your opponent while bit by bit disrupting your opponent's alignment.

This is all stuff that is applicable to BJJ too and it's something I take great advantage of in my armbar/flower sweep/back take chain from closed guard (just off the top of my head), and other defensive positions, scrambles, etc.

When I arm drag from sitting guard, I'm usually framing up against an aggressive passer, establish my grip, then bring my hips out from underneath them (creating a hole), then pulling their arm tight and dropping myself down. I don't try to muscle them into position, I trick them and let gravity do the work for me. Same ideas in Aikido but because of it's dynamic nature, much harder to set up and execute.

[YT]o-qgQ9sxZaI[/YT]
[YT]ugsS2_Z0wpA[/YT]

 

[cms9690]

I'll chime in on this one!


I'm a blue belt in BJJ and train with a white belt (in bjj, but black belt in Aikido) who runs his own Aikido school.

I may be the first one to say this, but Aikido can be dangerous if you're on the receiving end of a seasoned practitioner. I don't have an exceptional amount of knowledge with the art, but my white belt friend has shown me some of his standing techniques and they're PAINFUL just to have him (a very seasoned practitioner) apply via drilling at a slow speed.

When we train BJJ, he gets stomped and he moves like your typical two or three stripe whitebelt. This leads me to believe that Aikido would be great for "break away" techniques where someone tries to grab you and would be nice for controlling distance with angles and such. It may not be the best route to go for self defense (especially when compared to BJJ, imo), but if you're trained under a competent instructor who expects competence from you, I think Aikido is better than nothing.

HOWEVER! I have rolled with HIS Aikido instructor who is also a first degree black belt under Rigan Machado (So 1st degree bjj and 5th degree Aikido) and he blends the two arts together beautifully (and painfully).


Hopefully this helps clear up some things, TS.

 

[QingTian]

Not sure that is what I was looking for, but thanks for sharing the videos. I was hoping to find something about using movement to disrupt uke, which is less intuitive than either a static demo or compliant partners.

One I liked from Judo is:

[YT]watch?v=P3bJzihUuO0[/YT]

At first glance you might ask, what's the difference? It's a fair point, and one I cannot say with first hand experience from Aikido, but from Judo experience I think one would be easier to resist against.

Some of Mori's throws were sloppy, to be honest, especially where he pushes people down by the chin. I know it's a demo and he's having fun, but...

 

[seatea]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_Evil_Marksmanship#Inverse_Ninja_Law

Why haven't I heard of this before!? It's relevant to two-thirds of every self-defense thread on Sherdog.

 

[Jbeefnet1771]

Maybe in theory if someone is trying to brain you with a weapon, Aikido is better. But in reality, NO.
A purple belt or better from the avg. BJJ school will have much better reflexes, cardio, strength, instinct than if they trained at an Aikido school for the same amount of time. The lack of resistance means you really dont know how to apply the skills on someone who is out to stop you and beat you. And when was the last time in Aikido practice someone came at you with a weopn with a true intent to maim you? Doesnt happen so the fighter is not prepared when it really happens. Aplha conflict and 100% resistance is something BJJ fighters deal with in practice every day. There is no amount of technique that can replace that.
We have a bunch of really serious Aikido fighters who are pretty tough - the school seems super serious. However, the aikido brown/blackbelts who walked in as white belts in BJJ and are now blue/purple in BJJ and still aren't better than the avg, BJJ purple. It was funny seeing their aikido locks the first few weeks completely FAIL on bleus and up. Their Aikido just didnt do it and they train with us much more than they train aikido now. Some have stopped aikido altogether.

...Guess what, he's probably going to pick up an object and try to brain you with it.

Aikido works fine for that, it might even work better than sport BJJ at least on the entry.

 

[Kbits]

I saw the question of hara pop up and wanted to share a few nice videos on the topic from the late Danny Da Costa (6th Dan Judo, 6th Dan Aikido, European and British Open Judo medalist, boxer)

[YT]F90OzaNSu7M[/YT]



Topic gets a little deeper than this but this is the crux of things (shown in a visible way)

 

[JohnSouth]

Maybe in theory if someone is trying to brain you with a weapon, Aikido is better. But in reality, NO.
A purple belt or better from the avg. BJJ school will have much better reflexes, cardio, strength, instinct than if they trained at an Aikido school for the same amount of time. The lack of resistance means you really dont know how to apply the skills on someone who is out to stop you and beat you. And when was the last time in Aikido practice someone came at you with a weopn with a true intent to maim you? Doesnt happen so the fighter is not prepared when it really happens. Aplha conflict and 100% resistance is something BJJ fighters deal with in practice every day. There is no amount of technique that can replace that.
We have a bunch of really serious Aikido fighters who are pretty tough - the school seems super serious. However, the aikido brown/blackbelts who walked in as white belts in BJJ and are now blue/purple in BJJ and still aren't better than the avg, BJJ purple. It was funny seeing their aikido locks the first few weeks completely FAIL on bleus and up. Their Aikido just didnt do it and they train with us much more than they train aikido now. Some have stopped aikido altogether.

You're comparing apples to tomatoes.

Of course they are not as good as BJJ blues at BJJ and BJJ blues suck at Aikido. I also never said anything about Aikido by itself did I?

I trained a lot of sparring styles and they often bear no resemblance to actual combat. You want one strike one kill, you don't want dancing around behind a jab and rolling around on the ground if you can help it.

Also getting hit over and over and still fighting is not realistic. If I go light with you and you keep attacking because I don't want to break my partners face, that doesn't make you good.

I train BJJ even my instructor says don't go to the ground in the street. Most of the SD stuff we learned was standup, the rest is tournament only or developing the sparring skill.

But those self defense techniques are what I'll actually use not the sport stuff.

I was training with this Russian guy a while back, Kyokushin black belt, this dude was teaching Judo, Aikido and Systema gun and knife disarms, even some BJJ in there. That guy was a martial artist. I thought he was nothing until I saw him strike and then the bare knuckle hits he took to the body just for conditioning.

These other fuckers, I trane BJJ and I'm a blue belt, I pull guard and roll on a mat then I go to Starbucks. You mess with me I'll do my shitty double leg. These guys would get their faces and bodies punched so bad by this guy it would be brutal. Then he'd throw them on their heads and wrist lock the shit out of them. lol