Is there "rolling" or any form of resistance in aikido

[ShindoNinja]

I have trained in Aikido, Judo and now I'm a purple belt in BJJ. Aikido in terms of how it's taught, doesn't work as is. You learn how to affect the techniques on a compliant partner in the absolute perfect conditions. That being said, I am able to use Aikido concepts to catch guys in rolling with wristlocks but they are always set up with some other elements of jiujitsu. Alot of the time after a catch a guy they will mention to me that no one has ever tapped them with a wrist lock. I am effective with these techniques because of the combination of my training, not solely the Aikido. Of the basic 5 aikido techniques, I've used all of them in BJJ except for Yonkyo (a pressure point technique).

For self defence Judo > BJJ > Aikido.
If you take the average BJJ blue belt or Judo Blue belt, they most def have a huge advantage over an average Joe in the street. If you put the same amount of effort into Aikido, I don't think you can claim the same thing.

 

[Gambledub]

It is a smart choice when someone is trying to stab you, swing a bat at you or there's 3 of them. If he runs in fully committed hell yeah.

Other times you go with Judo.

The techniques do work but not alone. Judo is weak by itself also, it is only part of a system.

No it's not. In those situations running or finding your own weapon is the only smart choice.

 

[JohnSouth]

No it's not. In those situations running or finding your own weapon is the only smart choice.

But your wife is with you and you don't have a weapon to find.

Quit weaseling out of the situation and be a man.

Just because you can't do it doesn't mean nobody else can.

 

[EGDM]

If you're looking to be able to defend yourself or be effective against any other form of grappling, look elsewhere. I think if you took it seriously and trained for 5 years or so, you could probably control your drunk uncle. A 5 year judoka would paste you into the turf without effort, though.

Basically this.

I'm an ex-Aikidoka. I trained 13 years, got to Sandan, and was a certified instructor. (Also BJJ purple belt from Alliance HQ.)

No, there is no meaningful resistive sparring in Aikido in the sense that people are asking about. The Tomiki guys make an attempt, but it's stupid. Yes, this means that people's technique isn't worth much in a fight against a trained opponent.

That said, while not an effective modern fighting discipline, Aikido done well takes a great deal of skill and teaches a lot about body control and movement in a martial context. I'm hardly a world-beater, but my Aikido practice enabled me to pick up BJJ very quickly relative to the amount of time I invested. After a little practice and developing setups I can hit Aikido techniques in rolling - ikkyo and sankyo mostly, with the occasional nikkyo. If your goal is to learn to fight, though, Aikido is a pretty low-leverage approach to get there.

There are loads of Aikido folks who would wipe the floor with an untrained opponent, but that's a pretty low bar. (There are also loads of guys who would hurt themselves escaping from a wet paper bag. The distribution of skill is massive compared to BJJ/Judo/MT.) A few of the very senior instructors, though past their physical primes, are absolute monsters. Specifically, Kazuo Chiba in San Diego and Claude Berthiaume in Montreal. Can they fight against a modern grappler? Probably not, but I wouldn't put money on not getting badly hurt in the process of trying to take them down in a no-rules situation.

tl;dr - Most of the bad stuff you hear about Aikido is true.

 

[sb413197]

a buddy of mine after finding out I do bjj claimed that street wise bjj is a bad idea and suggested aikido instead. I don't necessarily disagree about bjj on the streets

Your buddy is misinformed, and you SHOULD disagree with him. Grappling is an important part of fighting. Even if going to the ground isn't your first choice in every situation it's important to know how to do it.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Your buddy is misinformed, and you SHOULD disagree with him. Grappling is an important part of fighting. Even if going to the ground isn't your first choice in every situation it's important to know how to do it.

Ah yes sorry for the lack of clarity. I indeed meant as first choice, which is why I stated that I want some kind of ground knowledge to know what to do if it does end up on the ground. But he seemed to dismiss bjj as a whole even in that aspect.

 

[ShindoNinja]

Basically this.

I'm an ex-Aikidoka. I trained 13 years, got to Sandan, and was a certified instructor. (Also BJJ purple belt from Alliance HQ.)

No, there is no meaningful resistive sparring in Aikido in the sense that people are asking about. The Tomiki guys make an attempt, but it's stupid. Yes, this means that people's technique isn't worth much in a fight against a trained opponent.

That said, while not an effective modern fighting discipline, Aikido done well takes a great deal of skill and teaches a lot about body control and movement in a martial context. I'm hardly a world-beater, but my Aikido practice enabled me to pick up BJJ very quickly relative to the amount of time I invested. After a little practice and developing setups I can hit Aikido techniques in rolling - ikkyo and sankyo mostly, with the occasional nikkyo. If your goal is to learn to fight, though, Aikido is a pretty low-leverage approach to get there.

There are loads of Aikido folks who would wipe the floor with an untrained opponent, but that's a pretty low bar. (There are also loads of guys who would hurt themselves escaping from a wet paper bag. The distribution of skill is massive compared to BJJ/Judo/MT.) A few of the very senior instructors, though past their physical primes, are absolute monsters. Specifically, Kazuo Chiba in San Diego and Claude Berthiaume in Montreal. Can they fight against a modern grappler? Probably not, but I wouldn't put money on not getting badly hurt in the process of trying to take them down in a no-rules situation.

tl;dr - Most of the bad stuff you hear about Aikido is true.

good post

 

[Nnedd]

But your wife is with you and you don't have a weapon to find.

Quit weaseling out of the situation and be a man.

Just because you can't do it doesn't mean nobody else can.

My wife IS a weapon.


Boom.

 

[Jukai]

Glad to see JohnSouth is diversifying his trolling and not just posting in F11 anymore.

 

[Crossface9]

amen.

if Aikido worked THAT well, SOMEBODY would have used it in the UFC by now.

MMA has been the worst thing for TMAs that rely on mysticism and bullshido. Not only do a lot more people know what "real" fights look like, they know when people are LARPing.

If only you could convince the LARP crowd they're not doing anything worthwhile or based in reality, but then again, people who gravitate to and immerse themselves in Aikido aren't really looking for reality checks.

Great post, its fun to think bout that MMA did to fake martial arts or just people who are delusional.

 

[Steve08]

My wife IS a weapon.


Boom.

Hahahahaha :icon_lol:

Yeah, don't take that guy too seriously, he basically just passes himself off as a self-defense expert on "da streeetz"... you know, the streets where 6 months of no gi with some stand-up grappling would be infinitely fucking better than aikido.

 

[JohnSouth]

Hahahahaha :icon_lol:

Yeah, don't take that guy too seriously, he basically just passes himself off as a self-defense expert on "da streeetz"... you know, the streets where 6 months of no gi with some stand-up grappling would be infinitely fucking better than aikido.

I've had more than 6 months of no gi and stand up grappling so I'm all set then.

In reality no fight I've ever been in is like no gi or gi grappling. Where I come from guys friends just jump in and bust you up anyway.

It would have been useful to know if only to give more confidence if someone grabbed me but otherwise it's limited.

BTW LOVE how you lean on each other for support like that. Super manly.

 

[Nnedd]

Hot lava, syringes and broken glass in 3....2.....1....

 

[JohnSouth]

Well yeah there's broken glass...you can usually deal with that.

A good punch in the face works better than just about anything I ever saw.

I was simply saying Aikido techniques might have some use for weapons based or committed attacks since sport BJJ and Judo has no weapons or striking awareness.

Gracie JJ might be better choice to give some weapons awareness, stand up grappling or punch defense.

I trained at a couple Relson schools and their sport BJJ was actually better than the sport school I trained at and the self defense and stand up wasn't bad at all.

I had this prejudice because some of the schools roll in slow motion and I can't abide that.

 

[Gojujutsu]

Well yeah there's broken glass...you can usually deal with that.

A good punch in the face works better than just about anything I ever saw.

I was simply saying Aikido techniques might have some use for weapons based or committed attacks since sport BJJ and Judo has no weapons or striking awareness.

Gracie JJ might be better choice to give some weapons awareness, stand up grappling or punch defense.

I trained at a couple Relson schools and their sport BJJ was actually better than the sport school I trained at and the self defense and stand up wasn't bad at all.

I had this prejudice because some of the schools roll in slow motion and I can't abide that.

Might have does not equal does have.

Aikido is not a battlefield art - battlefields change over time, as you mentioned; we send guys into battle with hopefully better marksmanship skills than grappling skills. Aikido is intended to represent samurai battles where you wield sword, spear, and knife and would not want to go to the ground. There are no more samurai battles and a "real street fight" is a different battlefield than what Aikidoka train for.

 

[Nnedd]

Well yeah there's broken glass...you can usually deal with that.

A good punch in the face works better than just about anything I ever saw.

I was simply saying Aikido techniques might have some use for weapons based or committed attacks since sport BJJ and Judo has no weapons or striking awareness.

Gracie JJ might be better choice to give some weapons awareness, stand up grappling or punch defense.

I trained at a couple Relson schools and their sport BJJ was actually better than the sport school I trained at and the self defense and stand up wasn't bad at all.

I had this prejudice because some of the schools roll in slow motion and I can't abide that.

This is a thread about a lack of resistance training in Aikido, you are advocating some Aikido over bjj, partially because of slow rolling training in bjj.

Is that actually happening right now? You're countering criticism of one art by using the same criticism against another art?

 

[JohnSouth]

Might have does not equal does have.

Aikido is not a battlefield art - battlefields change over time, as you mentioned; we send guys into battle with hopefully better marksmanship skills than grappling skills. Aikido is intended to represent samurai battles where you wield sword, spear, and knife and would not want to go to the ground. There are no more samurai battles and a "real street fight" is a different battlefield than what Aikidoka train for.

True, I was more thinking in combination with other grappling arts. Remember Aikido, is a new thing, those techniques existed as part of jujitsu.

It was never meant to be a standalone, I'm not sure what is wrong with those techniques if they are called for.

Real street fight is not UFC style duel outside. You can just avoid that.

It's where someone attack you say office shooting, knockout game, mugging, home invasion where you can surprise the guy. Aikido relies on surprise for a lot of it's techniques, doesn't mean it can't work.

You still don't want to be on the ground 80% of the time, not that much changed.

We have guns and knives now, Aikido have some gun and knife disarms. BJJ as taught in most schools has nothing but shoot that crappy double leg.

 

[The Real jc]

Some martial arts are nonsense. Aikido is as useful in a fight as Morris Dancing.

 

[JohnSouth]

This is a thread about a lack of resistance training in Aikido, you are advocating some Aikido over bjj, partially because of slow rolling training in bjj.

Is that actually happening right now? You're countering criticism of one art by using the same criticism against another art?

No sweety, but I can tell you think you made some kind of point. That's cute.

If you train Aikido with other more alive grappling arts you can transfer that ability to Aikido.

Take a guy who's trained in Judo and is also a black belt in Aikido....think he can't get some of those throws off a haymaker or a committed stab? Bet he can.

I took Judo from a guy who is also an Aikido black belt and he didn't seem to think it was a joke.

But again the intention was never to have Aikido as a stand alone style and it wasn't even Aikido back then, it was Daito- Ryu aiki-jujitsu and those guys had belts in other forms of jujitsu and Karate as well.

If he missed the throw he'd take the guy down with something else but he'd get out of the way of the initial attack.

 

[JohnSouth]

A common problem is these threads is the inability to determine the difference between dueling and combat/self defense.

Everybody is thinking cage fight as if a guy who catches you in bed with his wife is going to hide behind a jab and dance around with you.

Guess what, he's probably going to pick up an object and try to brain you with it.

Aikido works fine for that, it might even work better than sport BJJ at least on the entry.